To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

Thinking that jobs which require years of training and professional exams should be eligible for higher pay than a role that doesn’t, is not disrespectful in itself surely? You can respect someone in a minimal wage role and see their value (the pandemic showed us that) whilst also seeing that a profession which requires yearly registration fees, CPD and huge amounts of risk management should be paid better.

As a side issue, the biggest travesty is the low wages paid to care staff. They do physically and emotionally demanding jobs with embarrassingly low remuneration. In a country with an ageing population, this is incredibly stupid and short-sighted.

Yes, entitlement and seemingly an inability to think about what the real issues are, and getting bogged down in side or non- issues…….which is what government hopes will happen.

Saying Doctors should be paid more doesn’t mean other jobs are not valued. It is the case that lots of jobs should be paid more.

Saying it is right that Doctors are paid more than certain other jobs doesn’t mean those jobs are not valued or that those jobs shouldn’t get more they they do now. It is simply recognition that the training required and level of skill and responsibility of Doctors is higher than in most occupations.

I think some people are just idiots to be honest. They can’t bear the thought that anyone has more than them or dares ask for more than they currently get, if it’s already more than them. They take the view that anyone well paid gets more than they deserve and that all of the well paid are looking down on those doing other jobs.

Too many people can’t grasp the basic points that we need people providing services that Doctors and teachers and nurses provide, and that if conditions aren’t adequate (which is related to funding) and pay competitive, people will leave. It is a nonsense to criticise Doctors for wanting salaries to reflect their skill level and to suggest that any interest in wages is inconsistent with being a caring Doctor.

People are quick to complain if their relative has to wait in an ambulance to get into hospital or waiting times are long….but don’t seem to see the connection between this and the pay of junior doctors or the point at which it rises to higher levels, or more vitally the connection to funding in the NHS.

They want low taxes and high quality services. Unfortunately you can’t have both.

Mic drop👏👏👏👏

Largely on HP/loans. Still, the basics are out of reach. Imagine being a 19 year old now looking to try and get on the housing ladder. I bet they’d be happy to trade in the freezer for that opportunity.

And that few hundred quid they spent on a week to Majorca with their friends is hardly going to make a dent in that £300,000 mortgage.

Im not saying life wasn’t ever hard. I’m saying it is now too, in different ways. We all just do our best and deserve to earn what we work hard for.

I am horrified what I read here about teachers (I believe it too). A levels being taught by non-specialist teachers. Kids unable to complete their GCSE course because a Spanish teacher can’t be found. And that’s just the academic side of things.

If I was PM I would absolutely target these public services. Without education and health we will sink as a nation.

Young people nowadays with the A Level grades you need for medicine can quickly get six figure salaries in sectors such as tech, the City etc

There seems to be this perception, but it's not born out in reality. If you're earning six figures in law/the city, it's because you're pulling multiples of that in business acquisition - and only small numbers have these skills in reality. Some doctors have this capacity, but many more don't.

And that few hundred quid they spent on a week to Majorca with their friends is hardly going to make a dent in that £300,000 mortgage.

Not saying I don't spend money but of course it will make a difference. Nothing wrong with going on holiday but if you really want to save, you do have to cut back sometimes. £300k mortgage is unheard of where I live

It doesn't surprise me. My husbands been a paramedic with specialities for 20 years. His base wage is about £34k

Yeah, I don't know that many people on six figure salaries, although admittedly they probably revolve in different circles. My BIL earns six figures but he's Commercial Director for a household name food company and is usually away three nights a week.

How many years of missing out on holidays to make that difference?

My neiva paid just short of £300 on her vacation last summer. Times that by 10 years, that’s £3000. I guess you’re right, after 100 years, she might be able to afford the deposit!

Where are these "low taxes"?

The fact is that the public sector in this country is run TERRIBLY. Appallingly would be a better description. This isn't the fault of a lot of the people that work within the public sector. But as a whole, it just hasn't been kept up to date. Too many of the practices they used are still used simply because they don't want to make jobs obsolete. Why on earth are doctors still sending letters to each other? A lot of what the NHS does could be automated, click a button and the referral is made, the appointment booked. In one click. Not the hand typing of one letter, the wait for the postal service to deliver it, someone to read it, have their admin type another letter, wait for that to be delivered, and so on and so on. It's just ridiculous. And it's endemic throughout the whole public sector.

I'll be willing to pay more taxes when the public sector figures out that we're a quarter of the way through the 21st century. And also figures out that they work for us, not the other way round.

It's depressing how little importance some people place on having highly educated and skilled individuals to provide them with healthcare. I think it's partly related to have a tax funded NHS. People are prepared to spend more money on healthcare for their pet and will happily do so but take human healthcare for granted more as they don't pay upfront. Human psychology. They also tend to take less responsibility for their health for the same reason.

There was some comparison with bin men earlier on. Bin men do an essential job as do, for example, carers or those who transport food around or work in supermarkets. They deserve to be paid well and treated well. I hate the snobbery towards people in lower paid jobs that is really commonplace and I think the pandemic demonstrated how vital some of these jobs are. However, it is also ridiculous to suggest that people who can walk into these sort of jobs straight out of school, lower skilled work (not no skill) which do not require many years of education and 85000k of debt should be paid the same as doctors, junior or otherwise.

Whether the public at large think that doctors are overpaid simply because they earn (mostly) above average salaries is almost besides the point anyway. The fact is that doctors are leaving. Alongside nurses, teachers and other public sector workers. If you want healthcare and think it is essential, you need to ask yourself why. And not just when you have a heart attack and need urgent treatment but when you are well.

And I don’t think people know just how bad the impact of the junior doctors’ strike is going to be. Consultants are far fewer in number, not all shifts have been covered by consultants anyway, and their roles are very different so the cover may not be adequate. Three days. The government should be panicking.

Do not get unwell Monday to Thursday this week. From a professional perspective I am dreading it.

@Iwannabeacrocodilehunter presumably 100% of your deposit doesn't come from missing holidays it's just a proportion. And obviously it's everyone's choice, but yes- it does make a difference.

And I know people go on several holidays a year so... not just £300 for a full trip once a year. No bashing anyone, but if you want to save them save.

Consultants earn )up to £120k a year.

Not many jobs start at £29k then after training end with £90k more.

Not to mention junior doctors more often than not come from wealthy backgrounds with families to prop them up and motivate them. They won’t be homeless if it doesn’t all work out.

My heart doesn’t quite bleed on this one.

"It's depressing how little importance some people place on having highly educated and skilled individuals to provide them with healthcare. I think it's partly related to have a tax funded NHS. People are prepared to spend more money on healthcare for their pet and will happily do so but take human healthcare for granted more as they don't pay upfront. Human psychology. They also tend to take less responsibility for their health for the same reason."
I agree with this. It'd be much better if we had to pay a £20 deductible to visit the GP, £50 for an out-patient hospital visit, £100 a day for an in-patient hospital visit. But it would have to be reflected by an associated reduction in National Insurance. Which it wouldn't be, not a million years.

"There was some comparison with bin men earlier on. Bin men do an essential job as do, for example, carers or those who transport food around or work in supermarkets. They deserve to be paid well and treated well. I hate the snobbery towards people in lower paid jobs that is really commonplace and I think the pandemic demonstrated how vital some of these jobs are. However, it is also ridiculous to suggest that people who can walk into these sort of jobs straight out of school, lower skilled work (not no skill) which do not require many years of education and 85000k of debt should be paid the same as doctors, junior or otherwise."
But doctors are paid more than bin men. A junior doctor is paid more than an experienced bin man. An experienced doctor is paid much more than an experienced bin man. Doctors think they should be paid much more, from day one, than an experienced manual worker. That's the problem as I see it.

Juniors in law, etc start on six figure salaries now and are not bringing in £££. They are straight out of Uni like the junior doctors.
There have been increasing numbers of female applicants to medical school and falling numbers of men. That's because a lot of the intelligent male school leavers are choosing these far more lucrative jobs. The sort of people who go into medicine are usually in the top few percent and a lot can turn their hand to various things.

Deary me, OP you sound so angry and are snapping at everyone. I am not a doctor, but I do work in the NHS and can empathise with the incredibly difficult working conditions junior doctors are placed in. Honestly, the conditions should change rather than increasing starting salary…evidence suggests that money is not a motivator, clearly shown by doctors that leave the profession before making the big bucks. They shouldn’t have to work in such draining demotivating conditions, then they might enjoy their career.

All our letters are typed and sent electronically between hospital departments. Not sure if that’s a London teaching hospital thing or nationwide.

But goodness things would be better if we had one electronic paper record system. It would help so much. Each hospital having its own EPR and separate to GPs is shit. A huge investment in IT would save millions in the long run but nobody in government wants to do this.

I’m sorry. For young people today, a mortgage is out of reach for a long time.

In the meantime, I don’t begrudge them a holiday.

But that’s another conversation.

My point, working people deserve fair pay, relative to their job and responsibility.

"Juniors in law, etc start on six figure salaries now and are not bringing in £££."
In the expectation that they will bring in far more than six figures in the future. Law firms aren't paying juniors six figure salaries out of the goodness of their heart, that's for sure.

No but they are still paying £££ to Uni grads who are not yet bringing in the £ as I said.

There aren't many juniors in law earning six figures. Where did this theory come from?

Young people nowadays with the A Level grades you need for medicine can quickly get six figure salaries in sectors such as tech, the City etc

Very very few make six figure salaries. Many with those A levels who try to get into a law degree fail, and once graduated a significant proportion will be unable to find a traineeship. Of those that do, only a handful are in firms where they will have the opportunity to earn that sort of money and for them 100+ hour weeks would not be unusual. Same with pretty much every other sector.

In terms of return on investment, medicine comes out top:

Same for men