To wonder about CSEs v O Levels

[Bakance]

My partner has a brother much older than him - my DP is youngest in large, working class, Irish Catholic family. No one in their family has passed ever gone on to higher education - none educated beyond GCSE level.
Partner's eldest brother did 6 CSE exams big absolutely no O-levels at all - would he have been considered below average academic ability ?

Sorry should say none has gone on to higher education or passed exams beyond GCSE level

I think so, my memory is that GCSE's were introduced as an alternative to O'Levels to ensure that everyone left school with some qualifications.

I maybe wrong, it was a long time ago!!

Yes because a CSE grade 1 was the highest grade and this was equivalent to a C at O level.

God it's a long time ago since it changed. Depends what he got in his CSE's grade 1 is the same as a C in "O Level.

It was a different era.

There was lots of class and racial discrimination so kids from certain backgrounds weren't expected to do well and made to do CSEs even if they later went on to do A levels and degrees. I have older siblings and friends who suffered being put along the CSE route.

Also depending on your age and background you could leave school with them and easily get a job with decent prospects.

Back in the 60s my two eldest siblings went to grammar school. The third sibling failed the 11+ and went to secondary school that only had CSEs available.
We think in hindsight that he had dyslexia, but managed to get top grades in CSEs which allowed him to go to technical college and her higher qualifications. He did eventually make it to Uni and then on to get a phd, so there was nothing limited in his intelligence. The education system at the time just made it harder for him to progress.

His bruv only ended up getting only one Grade 1 - and it wasn't Mathis it English

Sorry but** not big in my original post

O levels were aimed at the top 20% academically. They were never meant to cater for everyone in education at age 16, hence the criticism of GCSEs as being ‘too easy’ when they were brought in to replace the two-tier system. This doesn’t mean that some weren’t put in the CSE stream incorrectly, of course.

O levels were before my time, how much harder than GCSE were they?

I have a feeling that a lot of the A level maths we did used to be covered by O level. I think I was most proud aof my B in A level maths, shit was hard.

I did a mix of O Levels and CSEs. Currently doing a PhD...

Hmmm, not in Thatcher’s Britain of the early 1980s.

CSEs were qualifications that had an end exam and also coursework so it didn't all rest on one exam at the end - and yes were considered to be more suited to less academically minded students. I did a mixture of CSE and O level. O levels were generally exam only although with my O level music I recall doing a project which was part of the final grade and also there was a performance element. Ditto food tech (HE) O level had a practical element.

I remember feeling embarrassed to be doing CSEs and it did single out students a little as being less able and there was a bit of sneering going on at my all girls school. I'm glad they were eventually abolished and replaced with one qualification for all.

I salute you! For me - impossible!

I went to grammar school. Most of us did 9 O levels, but those in the bottom set were allowed to do CSE maths and science. Pupils at the secondary modern school did more of a mix of CSEs and O levels. Just doing CSEs would put him at the lower end, but if he got grade 1s that would be the same as 6 O levels. Remember that it was really unusual to get loads of As at O level - in my year of 120 I think 2-3 got all As.

The top grade in a CSE was equivalent to a C at O Level

When GCSEs were brought in, they had both foundation and higher tier papers (and intermediate in some cases).

The top grade on a foundation tier paper was a C, whereas a higher tier paper went up to A*. It mirrored the old system, but if you got a GCSE C no one would know if you sat the foundation or higher tier paper.

I went to an all girls school, got told by my teachers I would fail and I did. Went to 6th form college and got 5 O levels.

Now this is what really surprises me. I expected O levels to cater for top 50% but top 20%?? They really creamed off the very top didn't they ?

Going back far enough, O-level was aimed at the top 20% and CSE at the next 40%, but I think it was more like 35% and "the rest" by the time they were replaced by GCSE (particularly after the raising of the school leaving age to 16). CSE grade 1 was equivalent to an O-level C+. There must have been plenty of people of above average ability with good CSE grades.

GCSEs came in in 1988. There were some "16+" exams on the run up to that, which awarded either a CSE grade or both a CSE grade 1 and an O-level grade depending on how people did - I guess they were trialling having a syllabus/assessment covering the whole ability range.

Anyone at school when there were O levels and CSEs, I was, is so old now that who cares what people thought about them?

No one defined by an exam they took 40 years ago

As PPs have said it was a different world

I sat my GCSE,s in 1990 ,,so i was only the third year ro do them ny sister was the first in 1988 ,we did course work as part of the final mark and were always told GCSE,s were easier to pass ,i dont think sitting CSE,s meant somebody was below average ,it was just a different systern a much smaller percrntsge took Alevels and went to university .

Interestingly, we’ve now moved back to a two tier system in Scotland, where the more able sit national 5’s and lower sets sit national 4. I wonder how those will be viewed in the workplace and whether those with them will be disadvantaged (simultaneously, I think I would have done well in the grammar system, and ds2 does better with practical / vocational subjects, so it’s not clear cut..)

Yes I remember now, my school was shit and only entered anyone for the intermediate paper, so the highest I could get was a B at gcse. There were people in my maths class that had been tutored and got an A * who couldn't cope with A level.

GCE and CSE were combined to create GCSEs so yes there was a lot of dumbing down inthe creation of the new qualification.

Hi, I'm 52 and I was the last year of O levels/CSEs. O levels were graded A-E, (lCSEs were 1-5 (I think)

CSEs were less academically challenging and more vocational than O levels. A CSE grade 1 was equivalent to an O level grade C.

I went to a big inner London comp. Did my O levels/CSEs in 1987. At the time, about 30% of a 5th year (year 11) year group would ultimately go on to university, and would typically have mostly O levels, grades A-C at 16+, usually in 8 or 9 subjects.

Only about 10% of the year group would leave with fewer than 5 CSE passes.

Average would be somewhere in between!