To wonder about CSEs v O Levels

[Bakance]

My partner has a brother much older than him - my DP is youngest in large, working class, Irish Catholic family. No one in their family has passed ever gone on to higher education - none educated beyond GCSE level.
Partner's eldest brother did 6 CSE exams big absolutely no O-levels at all - would he have been considered below average academic ability ?

Grade 1 CSE was equivalent to a grade C O level. Grades for O level ran A-E, then F=fail and U=ungraded. A-C were the ones you needed. No A* or that malarkey.

A CSE grade 4 was what the average 16 year old was expected to get. A grade 1 was O level pass equivalent but most pupils didn't take O level.

Ah thanks that's useful

He just got one grade 1 CSE

I went to a large comprehensive and there were CSEs and O levels. CSEs were aimed at the middle attainers . The lower achievers would only do a couple of CSEs alongside vocational qualifications. O levels for the top stream. More or less. But you could do a mix of CSEs and O levels. Grade 1 CSE is O level equivalent and you could count it as an O level.

However there is currently no calculus in GCSE maths and there was in O level - at least there was in the syllabus I did. There are some things that I was surprised to find are not examined at GCSE now but equally I have had surprises the other way. There is stuff in the GCSE Biology syllabus that I didn't cover until I was at University.
I don't think things are necessarily easier or harder than they were, they're just different.
I think there is more consistency now though. There used to be quite a lot of variation in syllabi between the exam boards whereas it seems to be more standardised nowadays, which is probably a good thing. I changed schools between O and A level and wasn't allowed to do A level maths even though I'd got an A at O level. The new school did a different board and there was quite a lot of topics that their pupils had done but I hadn't, and vice versa. I was told it would be "too hard". With hindsight, I think they meant too much hassle for them, but that's life! At least that wouldn't happen now I don't think.

I got O level History - B and English Language - C

I got a grade 1 CSE for Geography and 2 for maths, biology and Chemistry

Failed the rest - I was bright but struggled - didn't hold me back in the long run - got 3 more O levels, an A/O level, 2 A levels, a degree and my masters

I thing GCSE is much fairer - stops slitting kids into groups of academic and 'thick' kids - I certainly felt a bit thick at school!

Back in the 80's we where also in class groups from A-E - which pretty much labelled you from day 1 (I was a C)

Oh and I recently sat my functional skills maths L1 and passed - now aiming for Level 2 (it's not easy at 52!) - get your maths kids!

At least that wouldn't happen now I don't think nope it's still an issue - often different exam boards or the content taught differently - so in one school they do Macbeth and An Inspector Calls in year 1 of GCSE and another covers the second part of the syllabus in yr 1 - so it's still very tricky

Definite difference between CSEs and GCSEs, weren't allowed to do CSEs at my 1970s grammar as they were considered too 'lowly'; so I failed O-level maths.

Things were really a lot different back then, there wasn't so much emphasis on academic ability being the whole banana; good jobs could still be gained in various industries.

And having successfully been to Uni and studied postgrad myself I am more than comfortable with stating that it is not the great 'par excellance' it cracks up to be; quite the opposite as academics is quite narrow in how it produces new ideas, and very good at making fictions into truths, if they're 'published' they can be used, if they're not 'published' than any idea is unuseable.

Also at my grammar school there were 5 forms in each year. Forms 1 and 2 were for the 'brightest students' and they had to study French as well as Spanish or German and Latin. Form 3 was for 'middle' students who studied French as well as Spanish or German. Forms 4 and 5 were for the 'less able' students who studied French and either cookery or needlework. Very bad when you think about it and they wouldn't get away with doing that today!

Also, O levels were graded A-E, but only grades A-C were passes. D and E were failure. U was below all the grades and stood for Unclassified.

As per this thread CSE grade 1 was 'evidently the equivalent of a 'C' at 'O' level. Except it wasn't really, it was simply the highest you could get at CSE.

CSE grade 2 and 3 were never said to be 'fails' like a D or E at 'O' level.

The sad thing is that I remember being 'set' from year 1 (7) and it being rare anyone moved. At my school we set in 'houses' and 'colours' it was known that being in a 'colour' meant you weren't very bright. I can remember being scared I would be set in a 'colour' band.

Yes we had exactly this too. Top two forms all did O levels, middle one a mixture and bottom two did CSEs although me and one otter took a mixture. There was very much a snooty air amongst the two top forms. Hated it. And bottom two forms had ALL the trouble makers.

Anyone remember 'joint' exams? Might have been mentioned by PP. I was good at English, later getting A levels in English literature and English language at evening classes, but because I was in second to bottom form class was put in for 'joint'. I still don't understand why and the most I could get in the O level was a C.

We had 2 streams when I did my exams in 1981 . X stream sat O levels and Y stream sat CSEs. Some of us did an O level or two a year early and did an extra CSE in the remaining year. Sometimes people would be entered for both if the teacher felt they were a bit borderline. I did both in music, but the O level was more academic while the CSE had coursework and a performance element.
All seems like ancient history now

I did O levels and had to dig out all the certificates a few months ago for a job application, so some people definitely do still care!

It was. I was 'borderline' on my 'Kent Test' so my parents were asked whether they wanted me to go to the Grammar or Comprehensive school. They chose the Comp. It was a zoo & the bullying of any kid who wanted to study was relentless. We were all entered for CSEs as 'factory fodder' (this is how our teachers referred to us, on a good day). I paid to sit dual exams in some subjects so I could try to join the Grammar 6th Form. I particularly remember an O level Biology Qu: ' what is the function of deoxyribonucleic acid'. The CSE paper asked me: 'which organ pumps blood around the body'. I wasn't the only one held back by CSEs (at that point).

@Violinist64 I took O levels a year before you, in 1980, and my recollection is the same as yours.

At my girls' grammar school it was all O levels, CSEs were not an option at all, whereas at the secondary modern it was the exact opposite.

Off the point, but I found my mother's O level certificate recently. She was part of the very first year to do O levels (at the same grammar I later went to) and she took and passed 5 of them. No grades were on the certificate, it seemed to be just pass or fail. She didn't have the option of A levels unfortunately, had to leave and get a job.

Yup. I ended up with CSE grade 1 Maths - enough to get me to Grammar to do A levels. But when I applied to Edinburgh Uni in 1990 as a "mature student' (aged all of 20) I had to sit a Maths entrance exam as they were not impressed with CSE grade 1 vs O level grade C.

The last year the leaving age was 15 was in 1971, so you'd need to be 67 at the youngest to have left at 15. O levels were graded 1-9 with grades 7-9 being fails, not passes.
I can remember 2 or 3 in my year getting 9 grade 1s, and then going on to get 4 or 5 As at A level, including General Studies, which wasn't a soft option. Everyone did 2 foreign languages, and at least 1 science.

I left in 1979 and I was 15. I was one of the youngest in the year with a July birthday and it was three weeks before I was 16. I took a mix of O levels and CSEs.

I was the last to do CSEs, as i left school in 1987. I almost feel they arnt worth the paper they were written on really. Approx only 10% of pupils were entered for O levels. Wish i could have tried the GCSEs instead.

I know this is an old thread, that I have already commented on, but very roughly O Level = GCSE hard paper, CSE = easy paper, but even when I left school in 1987, it was expected that a few people would leave without qualifications.

My school was doing a trial exam called 16+ in the mid 80s which went A, B, C, 2, 3, 4, 5. Only in French though. The other subjects were O Levels and CSEs. It was quite a big deal to get an A at O Level.

Yes i agree about different exam boards and syllabi, they could vary wildly between schools. I moved very frequently and it was absolutely expected to lose a subject with each move.