Relocating back to London from Asia - where do I start

[FirstTimeMummyHK]

Hi mums, I have been in asia for 10 years and have been working as a lawyer full time since I arrived (some of which was spent as a paralegal and trainee). I have worked very hard to get to where I am. I have two children, ages 5 and 18 months and feel as if I have missed a lot of their special moments as I have always worked long hours.

We have always had weekends together, but haven’t made it back for bedtime most nights. I now work in-house and so things are better but I am a stressy one, give me work and I will slog away. In Asia full time domestic help is easily available and I have benefited from that (I have had wonderful nannies who are affordable) and so I have never had to worry about the kids being well looked after or shlapped from pillar to post whilst mummy is working.

Anyway - we are relocating back to london soon and DH will find it difficult to find work for various reasons; whereas because of my PQE level and experience won’t find it as hard to get something.

I am very unsure of what to do, do I continue working full time and if so, where do I start when it comes to childcare? What happens after school for a 5 year old - so I need to organise an after school nanny or are there clubs that keep them
until 6pm?

if I decide to work part time like 3 days per week then is this the kiss of death to my career / can it even be done for a transactional banking lawyer? Will I feel like all that work I went through to get to where I am will be a waste if I take a career break and have to start many ranks lower on the ladder?

i recognise my post is a little all over the place but I am feeling very anxious and worried about money and childcare and setting ourselves up so really anything positive re relocating back to uk is welcome!! No chances of changing our minds. We need to come
back for wider family reasons.

we will be eating into our savings as soon as we return so I will
need to at least get a part time job I think.

I need to make this AIBU so will say - AIBU to be so anxious…!

Thank you for getting this far. Best wishes. M.

@GreatContinental re accommodation we may need to stay with family initially which is not my preference but totally agree with your comment . Then when we can get a mortgage we buy

I think you need to have a hard think about what you actually want and what your kids actually need.

You chose a career that sounds like it isn't conducive with having being a hands on parent. That's ok if you're fine with that and your kids are still ok, there's absolutely no requirement to bring hands on if your partner is able to be there for them. But it sounds like you don't really know what you want.

You want flexibility in a job that doesn't typically offer that. So then you want schooling that's more flexible than what it is to make up for your job.

Can you afford private schooling? Tends to offer more childcare and clubs.

But there becomes a time when your kids come first. Perhaps a rung or two down the ladder for a while would give you all a better lifestyle?

I'd stay in HK until your youngest is school age. Childcare in the U.K. is a complete nightmare even with a nanny. You sound like you're going to need private schools for the wrap around care plus a nanny/housekeeper.

yep

I wrote then deleted an entire post that was a harsher version of this, with the exception that it makes sense on paper for your DH to SAH until you all find your feet. (Also I don’t see why an MD presumably in his late 40s in HK would struggle to find a comparable role in London, unless he’s not admitted to the roll in England & Wales?)

It is not possible to have it all. It just isn’t. In addition to the conventional “all” that women seem to want, you are adding proximity to ageing parents. Something will have to give. Your career, time with your D.C., time with your parents, money, education, your DH’s career etc. Even if he gets an MD level job and you an ED level in-house banking job, you’re either going to be paid a part time salary for FT hours and still feel guilty that you’re bailing at work and not giving your kids what they need AND it’s costing you too much money and an inferior education, or you’ll continue FT with far less back up than you’re currently used to with commensurate stress levels, or you’ll take a major step back for family and risk resenting the financial and career sacrifices.

If you insist on trying to have it all, stay where you are. There is no way you can replicate what you have in HK, from the sounds of things. Alternatively, do some soul searching and make some choices and don’t look back. Something WILL need to be let go of. Just make sure you’re okay with whatever it is you choose.

Your opening post reads as if you are a single parent. Sounds as if all the stress and juggling with family and career has been on you. Why not return to London, you go full bore on your career and DH does some consulting around school hours for a couple of years? Would be a gift for him (presumably) to have time with DC and focus on them as they adjust.
You have had a decade of low cost child care due to the inequalities in Asia. It will seem expensive now but average it out across your working life. You are very much ahead.

@StartupRepair thank you. I was hoping to have at least one year to be with the children (SAH) to settle them in and also to spend time together rather than DH doing that. Then after that ideally (for financial reasons) I would work FT. I will need to likely do PT after that because of childcare issues.

I would like to clarify that I am not looking to replicate what I have in Asia. I haven’t been living on the moon ;) I have an idea of what things are like in london. I wanted to drill it down a little.

To the person who says I chose a non-child friendly career : we are about 17? when we pick our law degree. Not sure we can see that far into the future.

Anyway thanks again all. I am looking forward to coming home and we will make it work.

Best wishes.

I can see the issue is you wanting the time at home but you are the one who is immediately more employable at the right level. Why not budget for 6 months? You focus on family while DH goes all out in job hunt.

@StartupRepair thanks yes I think so. I just can’t imagine not being around for the kids initially when I have uprooted them to a new country which is my home but not their home.

It does seem to make sense for your husband to be a SAHD at least in the short term, so that you can park childcare worries and just think about job, home and school (which is enough on your plate, let’s face it). One you’re settled, he can then find work and you’ll know more about what’s feasible with childcare. FWIW my husband and I are both lawyers and, for the period when we were both FT in private practice, we could not have done it without a nanny as nurseries are not open late enough. In house is more feasible.

I’d start by speaking now to recruitment consultants about the job market, which you can do from HK- you can even interview from there. Would you be open to in-house? I have several friends in banking law and in-house hours are much more family friendly than private practice, and the pay is still decent.

Schools will be slightly tricky with a 5yo. If you want to maximise time with children you obviously won’t want a long commute, but London state schools are very oversubscribed. Again, a research job for you and your husband to work out where to live where you can find a decent school place, get to work and pay the mortgage. Private may be an easier option for 7+ but whether that’s affordable is going to depend on a lot of things, including what your husband can earn once he’s back at work.

Remember you won’t be able to get a mortgage until you’ve been 6 months in your new job- is staying with family for that long going to work?

I’ve made it all sound hideously complicated but it is doable, especially if your husband can spend 6 months as a SAHD, or if you have enough savings to be a SAHM (assuming your husband can’t start work immediately). I’d start with job and school research.

Excellent advice

Push for flexible working arrangement - do you need to be face to face every day of the week at the office? If you can wfh 2 days a week, and dh gets a job wfh 3 days a week, then it will be easy to manage childcare. On your office days each of you goes in early and lets the other parent handles the kids. Then on your wfh days you handle getting the kids up and ready and you do school and nursery drop off and then pick up - realistically that means your kids are in school or nursery from 9am to 6pm. I know LOADS of kids who do this 5 days a week. The after school clubs are opportunities for organised play with friends, eat a light tea and they can have quiet time to read or do arts and crafts too. It’s not too exhausting age 5.

Then once the kids are in bed, you can do a few more hours work.

This is the pattern for many working parents and most employers are used to it. On “disaster” days when you just have to work between 6pm and 8pm, that’s when things get tough - but you will find ways to cope because you will become insanely good at policing your boundaries with work and juggling life, kids and work.

When you can cook spaghetti bolognese whilst on a conference call and supervising your kids playing Play Doh, then you know you’ve made it as a working parent.

Also make sure you live near your family as even if they are a little old and unwell, they are company for little kids and my dm was a treasure when my dc were small - take whatever help you can get !

You'll be fine OP.

You will need a plan for days when kids are too unwell for school and for inset or teacher strike days and the days around Christmas when holiday clubs don’t run and many private nurseries close. Main hols you will find plenty of fabulous holiday clubs your kids can attend. It tends to work out, stressful sometimes but it works out.

Oh I was going to add - make friends at school! Look out for parents who pick up from after school club as they are the working parents - club together and you can often share some of the difficulties (trains cancelled, can’t get to pick up by 6pm; sharing lifts to/from holiday clubs which sometimes start later than school (though most have a breakfast drop-off option).

I think one of you needs to have a decent job lined up before you even think about making the move, unless you have a lot of savings you are willing to spend. Remember the part time/flexible legal job you might want is far more likely to go to someone who has already put in the hard yards, unless you have some truly unique skill it is unlikely to go to someone who has just returned from overseas. What is your UK network like? Having a great CV is often less important than who you know.

On the work front, I'd highly recommend finding an in-house role that is mostly (if not wholly) WFH if you can. I did this and it has been an absolute game changer. No more wasting money and time on commuting, and you can more easily take breaks from work to do the school/nursery runs. If you need to work in the evenings though you'll need your DH to take charge of dinner & bedtime.

If you're moving back from HK you'll definitely have a better work life balance! And so many of the UK companies are more open to part time work as opposed to in Asia. In general I think the cost of living in London is still lower than HK, especially when you factor in housing.

Would you or your husband be able to get an internal transfer? That's the easiest option as the company will sort everything and will put you up for at least 2 to 3 months, and usually they give you 1 or 2 weeks off for you to settle in. (Otherwise get in touch with a recruiter.) It would of course be alot less stressful if one parent could stay at home for the first few months. I wouldn't worry too much about childcare and schooling at the beginning - your kids are not at an age where it's pertinent for them to go to school daily.

I'm sorry, but no. I have two friends who are lawyers. Both in house. My female friend has two primary school age daughters and works three days a week. The salary isn't massive compared to her potential earnings elsewhere, but it's a great compromise for her.

My other friend is a dad to younger children. He (presumably, I'm not sure) also earns less than you probably. He works full-time, 3 days WFH, 2 days in London. On the WFH days, he does school drop off and pick up to breakfast club and after school club whilst wife works.

Not all lawyers are working the hours you work. Or making the sacrifices you are.

It's a choice; you definitely CAN take a step back and get a better work/family life balance. But you need to be realistic.

Why live in London if it traps you in a job where you struggle to see your children? You can be 30mins away, with lower living costs and lower income requirements.

I may get slated for saying this, but kids are only young once and they need their parents. Whether thats you or your husband, someone needs to be around for them. If that means lowering your career potential for a few years, then so be it. That's just what parenting is.

OP I'm sorry if I missed something but does it have to be London? Post-COVID a lot of places offer WFH or at least a hybrid model (eg going into the office one or two days a week) - especially inhouse. London is SO expensive.

I am currently working inhouse for a large multinational (general commercial/contracts) and am paid a London salary (as that's where the offices are) but WFH full time and live in a different city for a fraction of the cost. My line manager is much the same - he also has a five year old and structures his day such that he can do both school runs and catches up in the evening.

Might be worth looking into?

Many thanks, it has to be London as I am returning to be closer to my wider family and that’s where everyone is.

We did this move 6 years ago with young children. The UK is incredibly expensive for any service type work and income tax is extortionate. Our full time nanny’s salary is £45k per year, plus employer NI and pension and payroll costs = £53k from our net salary, so costs about £88k from our gross income.

Then school fees are upwards of £16k per child and the fee increase over the past year has been 14.8%! Also there are 18 weeks of school holidays to cover (13 weeks if you use a state school).

A cleaner is £15 per hour.

Definitely run the numbers before agreeing the transfers.

No idea what the salary would be but there are plenty of roles like this popping up - www.totallylegal.com/job/3914036/in-house-banking-lawyer-remote-working-/

Or this one is hybrid working - www.totallylegal.com/job/3912826/assistant-legal-counsel-bank-/

I'd speak to some agencies and let them know your requirements and experience. I'm sure you'll find something easily!

Until recently we were a family of two law firm partners with a small child. What we did to make it work was a full time nanny up to reception year, then a nanny share with another family to do wrap around and holiday care. It's expensive but gives us what we need to do our jobs.

I would say since having our child we have both been successful but we possibly could have climbed the ladder faster if we had worked longer hours and never put our daughter to bed but neither of us wanted that.

Hybrid working makes things a lot easier. We still need childcare but don't lose time to commuting and can do the morning school run ourselves rather than getting our nanny to do it.

I was in a similar position to you - ie relocating from the Middle East to U.K. as a lawyer although I only had one child and (ironically fortunately) during COVID times so the initial period after we moved back was WFH as a default anyway.

DH and I both moved back with our current companies (me at a law firm and him at a MNC) which made things easier as we had built up the goodwill for flexibility. Both jobs are London based but we live a couple of hours outside of London as we wanted to be near our families. We both continue to WFH as default after discussions with our employers - we both go into London sometimes - DH probably goes in once a week on average and I only go in for important in-person meetings (which these days are few and far between - I refuse to go into the office to sit on Zoom calls all day as most of our clients are overseas so most calls do tend to be via Zoom). As a previous poster said, there are options but you do need to compromise. I am very much aware that it is would be very difficult to make partner given my limited attendance in the office but I don’t think I want to make partner anyway so right now I would rather WFH almost everyday so I don’t miss out on anytime with my DS. My current set up works fine for now but I do have an eye out for other roles at the moment due to various issues I have with my firm which I won’t go into now (and are unrelated to my flexi arrangement) but I would only move if I could find a job that was 1 day (or absolutely maximum 2 days) in London per week. Most law firms seem to be doing a 2/3 day split. DH works in house and for a company where most people WFH the majority of the time so he hasn’t found any issues from a career progression perspective.

It is a combination of WFH and being firm around not being available around drop off/pick up/dinner/bedtime that makes it workable without extra support. My DS goes to nursery and we balance who does drop off/pick up depending on the day as both of us are usually at home (so if I did have an important early meeting I needed to prep for then DH would do drop off and vice versa). We could make it work if we did go into London more than we did though but we would just need to work as a team to make sure our days worked together and one would always be at home. I do have to work in the evenings most days but I am usually strict about not being available between 5-7.30pm so I rarely miss evening time with DS. If I have to catch up on a weekend I usually do a few hours on Sunday night when DS is in bed.

Once DS is in school we are hoping to put him in after school club until around 5 which should still work with our current set up.

If you move back to London you at least wouldn’t have the added complication of a long commute like we have. I would definitely suggest speaking to current/potential employers about flexible working and making it work around your DC. From my experience recently of talking to recruiters and firms a lot of places to seem to be more accommodating to these arrangements in the legal industry these days, as there is a lot of demand and not enough talent. It also looks like the new flexible working bill is going to be passed and if so, then you would have a day 1 right to make a flexible working request (as opposed to having to wait 6 months at present).

A lot will depend on the school. If you are thinking private - they will usually have very good after school provisions.
State is hit and miss, and even if they have it it doesn’t mean it is available.
State school will be tricky as the good ones are usually oversubscribed, especially in Reception. Spaces do become available- but it may take a wile )eg my DC’s school received 260 applications for 60 places - in year 1 there were still 40 on the waiting list. No waiting list by year 3 though. Catchment area of 200 m).
options are afterschool nannies (but hard to come by), childminders or clubs.
same with nurseries - often there are waiting lists and spaces only become available in September.
we manage with one of us working part time, living really close to school/ nursery and with lots of hard work.
also - childcare costs a fortune - think £1500 a month for nursery, 300-400 for afterschool care.

A lot depends on what you'll be earning, how much you have in savings, where you want to live and how quickly you find jobs.
If you will be earning a lot, a nanny would be ideal. If you will be earning decent amounts an au pair could work if you have the space