To ask you too attend a candlelight vigil tomorrow evening in Edinburgh, Bristol or London

[Sophforthe100]

.. for the 100 students every year who take their own lives every year.

The law needs to change so that Universities have a duty of care to their students.

Fine out more: www.forthe100.org.uk/vigil

I'm a very regular Mumsnetter who has name-changed to post this.

Ok, but how?

A student can be seen by dozens of employees of the university. Few, if any have any kind of contact details for students families. Or even their term time address. Or phone number.

Some students never attend their classes. They're written to, eventually. How do you keep an eye on somebody who isn't there?

Lots of university accommodation isn't owned by the university itself. So if something happens there, what does the university do?

I don't disagree with you in principle, but I can't get my head around how it would work. What do you do about mature students? Or international students? Who should be responsible at the university because it's impossible to say 'the university'.

I agree with this. Sorry OP, there’s clearly a personal angle here which you haven’t gone into so I understand the replies will be hard for you to read.

But if the university should have a statutory ‘duty of care’ over the students, why shouldn’t their own parents? Should parents be prosecuted because in hindsight they ‘didn’t do enough’ to protect and support their adult child? If they’re not yet ready to be regarded as autonomous adults, then their parents should still be viewed as their legal guardian shouldn’t they?

I can’t help but think that when deaths happen now, grieving families look to place the blame somewhere because it makes the grieving process more ‘productive’ and the ensuing campaigning gives them something to focus on.

But from a non-emotionally-invested standpoint, making universities/workplaces etc responsible for the suicide of their members is illogical and deeply unfair. The only time there should be one is if they are dramatically failed by mental health services.

Anyone I know who had mental health problems (I mean suicidal) at Uni never even thought to go to the uni for support.

They had GPs just like everyone else and got crappy NHS non service like everyone else.

It is a problem though that some students can't get GOs near unis as they are 'full'.

But I heard a woman who lost her DD talking about this on women's hour last week and I do have sympathy.

I don't think unis should break confidentiality without consent though.

I think some of this feeds back into the extended childhood culture we have . Mid- late teenagers are much more immature than those even 20 years ago. They are emotional/ social children in an adults world. We need to talk about ways to make them more resilient.

You see it all over MN the culture of mollycoddling and helicopter parenting that's the norm now.

It goes right back to infancy with no overnight babysitting, others not allowed to visit/ hold a newborn, kids not walking alone to school til secondary, being driven everywhere, teens who've never taken a bus/train alone, pre teens who can't go into a shop and pay, late teens who can't make a formal phone call or know how much bills are.

No wonder they can't cope when thrown into the maelstrom of uni.

I think some of this feeds back into the extended childhood culture we have . Mid- late teenagers are much more immature than those even 20 years ago. They are emotional/ social children in an adults world. We need to talk about ways to make them more resilient.

I was a teen in the early 00s and looking back I was a fully blown adult when I left home at 18 (not for uni), minus the financial experience. I cooked all my own meals, did my laundry, had been taking myself everywhere on public transport since I was 12, organised my own accommodation and new job.

I’m fascinated and appalled when I read threads on here about how much parents now interfere in and control their older teens’ lives - ‘should I allow them to go to this party at 17?’ ‘How do I choose a uni for them?’ ‘16 year old has a friend I disapprove of because they smoke’.

They’re encouraged to introspect almost constantly, every minor upset treated as a ‘trauma’ with parents afraid to even raise their voices in case it’s seen as ‘abusive’.

A lot of posters talk about resilience but don’t actually want to do anything to help it along, they seem to think it’s something that magically appears.

Completely agree with this. Sounds like you had a similar trajectory to me.

I really really object and always have, to the requirement for parents to be financially supporting their adult children at university in way that is not expected (quite rightly) for adult children who are living independently at the same ages. It encourages this view that because someone is at university they're incapable of working and supporting themselves on top of any loan they take out. I financed myself through 2 degrees (the second of which I was a mature student and had very poor MH, suicidal but was under the GP who was fantastic I have to say) and was working and saving from 13 in various weekend/evening jobs.

Yes hard work is good for you! It baffles me how ‘exhausted’ everyone is these days as well. I’m now doing a degree in my early 30s, paid for by employer - started as an admin assistant and worked up. I’m doing it alongside my full time job, a 3 year old DD and a dog. It’s been tough, but 🤷🏼‍♀️ However I cannot see how only being a student with no caring responsibilities doesn’t give you ample time to study and work.

It’s very much a middle class parent issue if I may say that. I expect my kids to ‘be teens’ when they’re teens - I expect them to go get drunk at parties (hopefully not much earlier than 16!), I expect to find a vape in their bag (hopefully not a bag of weed), I expect that they’ll find the opposite (or same, who knows) sex more interesting than school for a little while. I expect them to be ‘immature’ and want to have a laugh as they go around figuring the world out and learning a few lessons.

Today’s teens look so miserable, dripping about in black clothes and stressing over climate change/inequality/politics. It’s like we’re trying to force them into the emotional strait jacket of an older adult while simultaneously confiscating the responsibilities and freedom that an adult has. Recipe for disaster IMO.

In an employment scenario the duty of care does not include contacting parents or family members.

If an employee disclosed to me that they were suicidal I would engage with HR, we would encourage the employee to utilise Occupational Health, GP or Employee Assistance programmes, we would have discussions about how we can help in the work environment to support with work activities. If they didn't attend work and were uncontactable we may contact the police if we had cause to believe a welfare check is needed. We would not contact the staff members parents though if the staff member is over 18 years old as that would be a breach of privacy.

University Duty of Care is similar, they should signpost to services, offer support within the context of what they have control over like assignment deadlines and lecture attendance but they are not parents or carers to the students.

OP I’m sorry if you have personal experience of this. Any death from suicide is a tragedy.

But I don’t think making universities responsible is the answer. 18 year olds are adults. Their frontal lobes may not be fully developed, and they sometimes make poor choices, but they need to be taking responsibility for themselves and learning to be independent.

There does seem to be increasing infantilisation of teens and young adults.
When I was 16 I moved alone to London in the summer holidays and found myself a job and a place to stay. When I was 18 I travelled across Europe and got a job - my only contact with my parents was a fortnightly airmail letter. I’d have been outraged, when I came back to study, if my university had been reporting to my parents on my mental health.

Improving NHS mental health services for everyone would be a better focus for your campaign.

Wow. Some victim blaming going on here. It's our fault as parents if our children have mental health problems because we've "infantilised" them and encouraged them to become "introspective"?

Fortunately nowadays there is much better recognition and understanding of mental health than there was when I was a young adult, and there is some help and therapy available - instead of being told to pull your socks up and get on with things (as I once was by a GP).

We are asking for a debate in parliament to find a better way forward for students - for some of whom have been failed by the current system. That is all.

And what about their family’s duty or care, you don’t just pack your kid off to a Uni and expect someone to take over all responsibility for them.

That's not what we are asking for Hintofreality. Please read the families' stories: www.forthe100.org.uk

I disagree even as a mature student who had to seek support from my university's MH team.
If they went and told anyone about my problems, if I was suicidal, I would be very much not ok with that and I would be reporting it. There are only couple of situations when they are allowed to break confidentiality and this is not one of them.

Uni students are adults, they have right for confidentiality as any other adult.
Yes, signposting to help could be better, but in no way would I be putting responsibility for someone like this on unies.

It isn’t ‘victim blaming’ it’s a logical extension of what you’re saying. If under 21s are inherently ‘vulnerable’ (I don’t think they are as a whole), and shouldn’t be viewed as competent adults, then shouldn’t their parents’ guardianship of them still be in place? If so, why would a university have a ‘duty of care’ towards them rather than the guardians?

I don’t think your specific argument is about ‘better provision for mental health’, which we can all get on board with. It’s more of an unrealistic expectation about where this provision should come from, and who takes responsibility for a suicide if the provision isn’t good enough to save them.

If you read the families' stories, several of the students had given consent for their parents to be contacted about their health. The Universities failed to do this. It might have saved their lives.

it is simply not their job

every suicide is a tragedy, student or not, young or old

But I am sorry, OP, you are trying to apportion responsibility to an institution that quite simply doesn't have responsibility, or the wherewithall to take responsibility

Universities are not there to provide mental health support though, they are a place to educate. Pastoral care is an add on.
A person in the midst of a mental health crisis needs professional help not someone in a university building that’s done a mental health two day course.

And what if the parents are part of the problem and the young person doesn’t want them contacted for good reason? It’s a difficult line to tread. I work in a uni and services are actually excellent. We’re also a small department with committed staff and good systems in place to keep tabs on our students, but realistically we can’t and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions and wellbeing.

We are asking for a debate in parliament to find a better way forward for students

the statistics seem to show students are at a much lower risk than those not at university.

why not campaign for a better way forward for everyone?

Sleepinggreyhounds if you see my earlier post, several of the students had given consent for the Universities to contact their parents, and they didn't.

I don't doubt that your Uni does an excellent job looking after your students, but I feel there need to be better processes in place to support those who are extremely vulnerable. That's why we need a properly-informed debate in parliament that can air all these issues. That's all we are asking for.

why not campaign for a better way forward for everyone?

Different institutions have different regulations in place - as I said earlier, employers and prisons both have a legal duty of care, Universities do not.

As the campaign states: “In work, or in education, 18- to 21-year-olds are vulnerable enough to warrant this duty, and since providers are happy to take their fees, they should also take on this duty of care. This is not just about suicide prevention; everybody will benefit from improved decision-making within the sector.”

This.

That is absolutely not the same as duty of care of prison.
Employer also has only certain duty of care.

I have a feeling there is a misunderstanding somewhere about what actually is "duty of care"

Universities aren't responsible for this.

Of course, whilst the death of any young person is a tragedy, it's not the universities issue.

For what it's worth, I had a miserable time at university for the first year and a half, and only then it only went from totally crap, to tolerably bad. I was horribly homesick, and struggled to make friends. I slowly found solace in online communities and my studies. But not once did I blame the university for my experiences.

There is no point saying that you want them to debate without saying what you want them to debate about. You say that you want the law to change so that universities have a duty of care but what would you want this duty to be? If they have the same duty as employers then they are only going to be responsible when actually in the work/education setting but they already are. When would you consider that they have failed that duty? What should be the penalty if they fail?