To think MN posters have a weird attitude towards potential benefit cheats?

[Moonicorn]

I say potential as they won’t all be, obviously.

But it’s almost like a ‘beak out everyone, if they want to steal from the public purse then good for them, and what’s more you should be happy to fund it’.

Whereas MPs fiddling their expenses, or tradespeople (ESPECIALLY if they owe CMS) not declaring earnings is seen as ‘immoral’ and something that should be exposed/punished.

What exactly is the difference?

Yeah, I do feel it’s slightly different than the Tories robbing the country blind and billionaires paying no tax.

But the money they’re fiddling doesn’t come from the same coffers as the MPs and big scale tax avoiders. It comes from the tax paid for by people like me - who earn 1600 a month, are just over the limit for UC but haven’t had a holiday in 5 years and are dicing with their overdraft every month. Why does everyone keep acting like they’re heroically plundering the coffers of Jacob Rees Mogg?

Glad the votes say common sense has prevailed.

Why does everyone keep acting like they’re heroically plundering the coffers of Jacob Rees Mogg?

Why are you acting like they’re breaking into your house to steal your pocket change? Benefit fraud is a tiny percentage of benefit payments.

“Why does everyone keep acting like they’re heroically plundering the coffers of Jacob Rees Mogg?“

Quite. Because our esteemed leaders are, allegedly, conniving, duplicitous, avaricious, fraudulent arseholes, we underlings should all aspire to the same standards? Weird point of view.

@Moonicorn youre not though, you’re advocating reporting someone as potential benefit fraud and not giving a shit that they will have all income removed for them for an indefinite period of time while an investigation goes on when you’ve no hard evidence fraud is actually being committed.

You realise that when someone has their claim stopped for that kind of investigation they have no access to money for food, to pay their bills and rent? What do you think happens then? Rent arrears build up which can result in eviction, they have no food meaning they might be entitled to help from a food bank for 3-5 days depending on their area but not for the weeks/months it can take to investigate. For all of their utilities to be cut off because the bills are going unpaid, to end up with sherif officers serving them papers for unpaid council tax. You’re advocating for the entire removal of necessities for life but hey, if they’re not committing fraud then they’ve nothing to worry about!

I’ve seen a lot of callous attitudes on this site but you more than take the biscuit. Your attitude is entirely inhumane, I hope you’re proud of yourself.

Definitely. It’s like they want to be the ‘cool kid’ and just ignore it. Stealing is stealing and it doesn’t matter if you’re poor, don’t do it. I’ve been through tough times but it never occurred to me to fiddle the system. I read a thread a month or two ago where people were saying it was fine to steal from a food bank!! I was outraged as I give to a food bank regularly and I wouldn’t want to think that people go to their local one and there’s nothing there because of light fingered thieves. Yes, MPs do it, but it doesn’t mean it’s ok for others to do it.

Stealing is stealing.
I couldn't be friends with someone that committed benefit fraud.
Just like I wouldn't be friends with shoplifters, drug dealers and feckless men that avoid paying maintenance.

I imagine if my worldview was so black and white that those activities were synoymous that I would also feel really angry towards people who claimed more benefits than they were entitled to.

£65 million lost to benefit fraud a year. More than twice the total cost of the MPs fraudulently claiming expenses.

The people who take the black or white stance of stealing is stealing are most likely completely financially comfortable in cushy permanent jobs.
Life can change in an instant....

I'd say the difference is firstly the amount, second the intent (to make ends meet or because you fancy your 3rd holiday of the year or a second home), and the fact that one person is employed to serve the general public and we pay them to do that which means they agree to a code of conduct and are held accountable as you would be in any job.

Which shows just how much MPs are fraudulently claiming considering you're talking about 100s of people vs potentially millions of people...

@Moonicorn

How many MPs are there vs benefit claimants.

How much money is lost via tax evasion

😐

I’m not saying benefit fraud is ok. I AM saying it’s used as a smokescreen to avoid bigger issues and scapegoat regular people on benefits and if your answer to that is “but the smoke!” then we have no more to discuss.

I read a thread a month or two ago where people were saying it was fine to steal from a food bank!!

Yes, I remember that one well

Such a shame the "don't judge" contingent fail to consider the consequences - like at the one I volunteered at, which had to close partly for this reason, and also because of the hideous abuse (including physical) staff were taking

But how many people are on benefits compared to how many mps are committing fraud? It's not proportional in terms of the number of people. Also is that not an estimated figure rather than a concrete one. Does that include vulnerable people who may be making a genuine mistake with their benefits? What about women in abusive relationships who's partners force them to work and claim and take their money? Are they included in that too? What about an 18 year old with a house who doesn't want to say her bf is living there temporarily while he's homeless because he has a full time job but they're not ready to live together yet and he doesn't earn enough to pay for them both? The circumstances couldn't be more different.

I find it an odd justification of fraudulent activity to talk about MPs expenses, legal tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion. Criminal and/or immoral behaviour by some does not justify criminal behaviour by all. That's not to minimise it, but its whatabouterty to deflect.

The OP is talking about fraudulent claims, not someone who might or might not have an entitlement.

We're not talking Robin Hood here, we're talking about people who are not entitled lying about their circumstances to obtain money from the public purse, which of course comes from Mr and Mrs tax payer.

Well Mumsnet is far from the real world so...

P.S. these criminals are not the friend of the person who is entitled to benefits. They stigmitise people and a system which I am proud of in principle (although not in the best of states in practice) and they ultimately reduce the pot from which they claim.

Not really.
I grew up in a council flat with an absent mother that worked all hours to provide for me. Latchkey kid.
My friends parents lived on benefits.
I chose not to associate with people that perpetrated the council estate stereotypes.
I look down on fraud and theft yet it would have been so easy for me to have followed that route.
Poverty does not equal dishonesty.

Cushy permanent jobs where they work 40 hours a week and their take home is just above the threshold for UC so they’re in the red every month? Those cushy jobs, where you can’t even remind yourself of why you’re working so hard?

@Everanewbie It would be nice if we lived in a society which was proud of providing for people who have fallen on hard times rather than treating them like thieves just for claiming. Finger wagging that it stigmatises honest people on benefits achieves nothing. Benefit fraud is already a very low percentage and will never disappear- what am I supposed to do about it?

UC is very generous to single mothers? I take it you've never actually claimed UC as otherwise you'd know how laughably incorrect that statement is.

You don't need to do anything about it. No one should be treated like a criminal. And I accept that fraud accounts for a small percentage of payments, but that doesn't make it any less egregious.

How many benefit claimants are there compared to how many sitting MP's?

I don't give a shit. A woman earning a few quid a week cash in hand doing a bit of cleaning to ensure her kids get fed isn't even on my radar.
Nor is a tradie doing cash in hand work.
If it's good enough for the politicians then it's good enough for the rest of us.