to think Gavin Williamsons views on teachers have been found out and he is trying to back pedal

[cakeorwine]

Leaked WhatsApp messages about schools during Covid and re-opening.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/01/leaked-messages-boris-johnson-bemoaning-face-masks-u-turn

In October 2020, Williamson said publicly the following year’s exams would be postponed for a few weeks to make up teaching time. According to the leaked messages, Hancock then got in touch with his cabinet colleague to say “what a bunch of absolute arses the teaching unions are”.

Williamson replied: “I know they really really do just hate work.” Hancock then responded with a laughing emoji and a bullseye.

Dr Mary Bousted, joint general secretary of the National Education Union, said in response to the leak: “Why am I utterly unsurprised to now have it absolutely confirmed that Gavin Williamson was unfit to be secretary of state for education?”

According to Williamson, these comments were about "some unions" and he has the utmost respect for teachers who went above and beyond during the pandemic.

Yet it's the teachers who would be doing the work, not the Unions. So who was he saying who "really really just hate work"

Wow yes that's quite a line from the man who humiliated his wife before the whole world and then went on national telly to try and convince everyone he was actually a nice guy really. If you like down with dogs you rise up with fleas.

@helpyhelperton

'are you are unhappy with you local school - do you homeschool your child?'

No.

Im not happy with current NHS services either but I'm not about to take my own gallbladder out

That'll be next - people are already resorting to DIY dentistry because it is fucking impossible to get on the books of an NHS dentist if you aren't already on one, and next to impossible getting and appt even if you are. DIY appendectomies will surely be next!

How dare teaching unions protect their members and try and get them some mitigating measures during a global pandemic.

The very thought of it pfft.

That may be true in England but not in Scotland

The SNP not the tories are in power up here and have fucked up the education system and BTW we already pay teachers more than they are in England so clearly that doesn't work. Also the EIS have been very specific that this is about pay ONLY not conditions.
As for your crap about long-term aggregate outcomes Vs individual outcomes you can fuck right off how dare you imply that it's okay to fuck with a child's life or for a dr or nurse to allow someone to die because its for the greater good of the workers. Have a look at yourself and think about what you are advocating

@FrippEnos

At the expense of the kids? They completely over exaggerated the risk and were unnecessarily antagonist and obstructive

I still can't figure out why.

As I say this thread is about Williamson's contempt for teachers unions he was dealing with, so not Scotland. You can stop going on about Scotland as it isn't the subject of the thread or the discussion.

And please don't be so abusive and unpleasant with your 'fuck right off' to a total stranger on the internet. Have a look at YOURself. I can only hope your children are getting taught some self-control and manners when they are in school, as clearly they won't be getting it at home.

I'm not saying it's 'alright'. I'm saying they have no alternative apart from to leave their professions or to effectively become vassals to the state with no say over their pay or working conditions (which are heavily related to pay and thus understaffing). And many are taking the first option, which only increases the desperation of the situation on the ground for those left, thus increasing the imperative for strike action before the whole system collapses. It is awful that people will suffer because of the strikes, but patients are already dying and children are already being failed because of the starving of resources to essential services by a Tory govt who are not invested in their success or failure because public services are something that happen to other people.

"Not in Scotland"? Fine, then why don't you 'fuck right off' and start a thread about the SNP and the teaching unions in Scotland instead of squatting on this one being abusive to people actually addressing the discussion in hand.

Please check your PAYE for last year and tell me if it would cover private school fees and associated costs for all your children for a year, before you even consider everything else it pays for e.g. healthcare and road maintenance, rubbish collection, local and national govt services etc

I keep saying "In Scotland" because I'm in Scotland, and Scottish teacher's strikes are impacting my children. Mumsnet isn't an English only enclave the last time I looked.

And no, I don't need to pay sufficient tax to provide private school fees for my children, our society works on a collective basis, ie that we each pay in a bit to cover the varied needs of society including healthcare, education, defence etc etc.My PAYE wouldn't cover my part of the UK defence bill either but I'm not about to stand a watch myself.

I'm entitled to have an opinion when education, which is a statutory service, paid for by tax payers, isn't being provided. And in Scotland it's not being provided because teachers here, who are already the highest paid in the UK, want an unrealistic pay rise.

I just saw the picket line outside Council offices. And they were not receiving support at all.

So I'm not sure Gavin is alone in his thinking.

I support teachers but I'm just pondering whether the Unions are losing sympathy and support now.

@Jellycatspyjamas

I keep saying "In Scotland" because I'm in Scotland, and Scottish teacher's strikes are impacting my children. Mumsnet isn't an English only enclave the last time I looked

No, but THIS thread is about Hancock and Williamson and their contempt for the teaching unions THEY were dealing with, i.e. it's not about Scotland. Yes you're entitled to an opinion on the wider subject of strikes and education, but not to derail this specific discussion with irrelevances. HTH.

Because people are all in favour of everyone getting a fair wage etc until it inconveniences them a little unfortunately. Tory govts equal atomised, disconnected, individualistic societies that are all about me, me, me. Or maybe it's the other way around.

But have you looked at other schools?

Yes you're entitled to an opinion on the wider subject of strikes and education, but not to derail this specific discussion with irrelevances. HTH.

It's a public message board, discussions often develop and wander, as this one did long before I joined it. Hope you're being well paid for your role as thread police. HTH

The government over exaggerated the risk.
The unions and schools responded to the entirely inadequate and sloppy guidelines that the government produced.

Instead of complaining about those that had deal will the mess and subsequent mess caused by williamson and his ilk. look to them to place your blame and ire.

And no, I don't need to pay sufficient tax to provide private school fees for my children, our society works on a collective basis, ie that we each pay in a bit to cover the varied needs of society including healthcare, education, defence etc etc. My PAYE wouldn't cover my part of the UK defence bill either but I'm not about to stand a watch myself.

And my point is you don't pay for education. You make a contribution to a public good. It's not like being in Marks and Spencer and complaining that you paid for 6 oranges so why are there only 5 in this packet. It is effectively free at point of use, or if you want to get into the nitty gritty of your tax contributions substantially discounted vs what you'd have to pay if it wasn't there. And your 'service provider' if you want to look at it like that isn't the teachers, it's the government, so it's them you should be fucked off with if they can't manage the education system to the extent it is provided to you, not the teachers who are simply doing the only thing they can to raise awareness of the fact they are being ignored by govt.

Ha at this.

I’m happy with my dc schools when they get to go but not with the closures generally as they were in the pandemic. The biggest hit to them has only been closures.

I can’t imagine there’s anything unusual about an education secretary having a private moan about the teaching unions. Or a transport secretary moaning about the rail unions. Or a health secretary about the doctors union.

Politicians are people like everyone else, who sometimes get stressed and frustrated in their jobs. This is a non-story as far as I’m concerned.

Plus I expect many people agree with what he said!

Well you seem to want to invalidate every point anyone makes about the situation in England (the subject of discussion) by saying 'not in Scotland!'. That isn't a 'wander', that's a derail.

Imo the view that teachers have of themselves as downtrodden, overworked hero's is simply not the view that most parents/general public have of teachers! Maybe if they stopped acting like perpetual victims then people might see their point of view!

The unions are their members. We may not always agree with them but when things go wrong they are needed.
Some of these comments are devastating. I was and still am extremely vulnerable health wise so I still take precautions to keep myself safe. I chose to work full time throughout the pandemic and wrote a letter to cover my school. I did and still do my best for the children I teach. I hid my honest disparity when the death figures came out at 2 pm and I tried to keep my positivity to the fore.
I am on strike today. I honestly can't afford to keep funding my classroom so my class can have a good education. I can't see senior experienced staff buried under the guilt of justifying their salary whilst they buy breakfast for hungry children in their class and sanitary products for the pupils toilets. I can't see the Head of school who I respect in tears as they speak about how they will not be able to find the 3.5% pay increase for next year without redundancies.

Life is hard everywhere but all I ask is that people remember for every bad or lazy teacher you experience there are many just trying to do the best they can for your children.

@herewegoroundthebastardbush well yes. There is that but "sympathy" is a regional thing isnt it. Because being a teacher here is desirable and well paid. Other roles that require a degree here are paid between £19k and £22k and that's for both private and public sector.

Like I say, I support teachers but I can see many many people don't.

Did anyone actually think 'Sir' Gavin Williamsom had ANY respect for teachers?!

He's an incompetent, vile, bullying arse. Keen to point out when he thought other people weren't doing their job, when all he did was bungle his roles. He should be stripped of his peerage.

Typical Tory. Thinks all employees are workshy scroungers. Utterly classist and utterly disgraceful. He should be deselected before the next GE by his constituency party.

@herewegoroundthebastardbush
Wow so as some patients are dieing needlessly it's ok to consign more to that fate and as kids are already being failed it's ok to further fail them cause more harm. If that's what you truly believe then im sorry for everyone around you because thats not the thinking of a compationate person.

As your racist bs this thread is about Gavin Williamson and his opinion of teaching unions which is what we are talking about both unions in England and Scotland are behaving in the same way and harming children not which government has screwed the people over more (BTW we would win that argument hands down up here)

I'm entitled to have an opinion when education, which is a statutory service, paid for by tax payers, isn't being provided. And in Scotland it's not being provided because teachers here, who are already the highest paid in the UK, want an unrealistic pay rise.

You yourself made the point that taxes are higher in Scotland. Therefore it stands to reason teachers will need paying more to enjoy the same standard of living as their counterparts across the border. And yes, it is reasonable for people providing an essential public service to expect a decent standard of living. Just because it's a vocation doesn't mean they should expect to live in penury to perform it. Teachers used to be a profession, valued and respected alongside others like lawyers and accountants; now experienced teachers get paid about entry level wages for those professions, and are expected to be grateful for it and not expect any more even as the cost of living skyrockets, the workload increases, and the conditions deteriorate beyond recognition. All while getting abuse from parents who once upon a time would have respected them for their expertise at teaching.