someone tell me what crime has been committed?

[Weefreetiffany]

Baffled by this story

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11810311/Woman-49-convicted-manslaughter-raising-hand-elderly-cyclist-collision.html

on what grounds are the prosecuting the pedestrian? It seems an absolute stretch to think that her gesticulating and “radiant her hand” at a cyclist for driving towards her on a pavement is wilful manslaughter? I can see how it’s a tragic, very unfortunate accident but how did this make it to court?

The atmosphere is this country is so toxic to middle aged women at the moment- what is going on?!

Remember you won't be seeing the full video. They're not going to show the accident. And there may be other footage — dashcams, for example.

ancientgran · Today 08:59

I don't understand why they can't find out if this pavement was just for pedestrians or a shared space.

A PP said that some way before the incident location, there's a no cycling sign.

Conflicting information about that,

It's pretty obvious it's because she swiped at her.......and let's face it if some bloke had behaved like that to an elderly lady on a pushbike going at walking speed your attitude would be very different.

She was an elderly lady ,she can’t be expected to ride on a busy road

Then she shouldn't be on a bike - except in cycle lanes.

If she was too inform to drive a car on a road, would you think it was alright for her to drive on the pavement, putting pedestrians at risk?

Poor driver as well.

@CrotchetyCrocheting brave seen no indication in the article about the ladies speed she was riding at. Also if you look at other posts I’ve made on Mumsnet you’ll see I’m a parent to a profoundly disabled child before you jump on me for anything about the other loses needs. You’ve clearly missed my point that we need safe cycle paths/infrastructure so these things don’t happen. Pedestrians and cyclists should all be safe to travel freely

I watched it on slow Mo and all I could say is it’s not clear, they are both fully out of shot at the moment of passing. Even with that though, they look to be on a collision course regardless of arm position. If I was about to be collided with I’d raise an arm.

People saying that questioning the decision is saying ‘the cyclist deserved to die’ are being ridiculous. People have tragic accidents or die in unfair but non-criminal situations. It’s not a case of they deserved it, it’s just very sad. The cyclist ideally should have stopped, but no one deserves to die because they made a non perfect decision, got flustered or misjudged something. If anything there should be some liability for making streets safer for cyclists and pedestrians. People shouldn’t be forced into situations like this just to get about. Even non ambiguous signage may have saved her, or clear painted lines on the pavement, or a barrier to the road. As it stands a toddler on a scooter, hole in the pavement or a squirrel could have caused a similar accident

You need to go back and recheck the laws on common assault. Shouting aggressively, especially when accompanied by aggressive gestures can certainly be a crime. Would only ever be prosecuted as such under extremely unusual circumstances, but may have been a factor in this case leading to a charge of type 3 manslaughter - or it might have been type 2, I'm not quite clear.

Oh hell, you're right. Sorry, I take my post back. You can just see it at the very last second, when she's partially out of frame. Her body turns and it looks like her arm comes out to push her.

If you're commenting on this but have not watched the last half-second of the video really closely, you need to.

Yes we have one of those right behind my house, to be honest it isn't very wide either but wider than the one on the video and has the white line down the middle. It is on the route to a nearby primary school so you do get kids on the wrong bit but there is grass either side so it easy to escape. There didn't look like there was anywhere for the pedestrian to go particularly as the sign made it even narrower at that point.

What I found disquieting about the woman who waved her arm was that the she just walked away and went shopping in Sainsbury's after the older woman fell into the path of a car and was killed. She just left the scene. That doesn't mean she killed the woman on the bike, but her actions did cause her to swerve into the road, which resulted in her death and she should've stayed at the scene, talked to the police, shown a bit of care for what happened. I suppose she panicked, which is understandable.

I hate it when cyclists are on the pavement, plus it's illegal to cycle on the pavement, and there are many cyclists who don't give a shit about this, ding their bells angrily at pedestrians to get out of the way and act like it's their right to cycle on the pavement. Plus the woman who waved her arm has cerebral palsy, so may well be unsteady on her feet and feel she needs plenty of space. I'm not sure she's guilty of manslaughter though.

Where is all of this 'hurtling down the path' coming from?

There's nothing to say the cyclist was going at a high speed that I've seen. Nothing to say she was flying along the path at breakneck speeds leaving a trail of pedestrians in her wake which is the picture some posters are painting.

There's also a lot of 'she was on the path illegally'. We don't know if that's the case. Clearly, there is enough doubt over whether it is a shared path for it to be reasonable that she thought it was.

What we can absolutely see is the pedestrian shouting 'get off the fucking pavement', waving her arm and slowing down, hesitating for a moment until she was alongside the cyclist, and then her arm coming out at very close proximity to the cyclist, the cyclist swerving in reaction from a very slow speed as she tries to pass, then going into the road.

The pedestrian's actions were clearly intentional from the CCTV. She wanted the cyclist off the pavement and was lashing out to make it happen. From the BBC article she 'may have made light contact' so not only did she lash out, she actually hit her.

Then she buggered off from the scene to go and get her shopping in.

The cyclist had slowed right down. She wasn't flying towards her. If you look at the video in full screen there was enough space for them both to pass, and they were passing each other. The pedestrian actually leans in to hit her. Presumably the cyclist was maintaining her line to enable the pedestrian to be on the path side rather than the road side. You really do need to watch the video in full screen to see it though.

The pedestrian assaulted the cyclist and the cyclist died as a result of that assault. It's the correct verdict.

Yes I agree completely. She didn’t deserve to die, but her death is a tragic accident. My sympathies don’t outweigh the fact that sometimes we want to find someone to blame, when legally there is no one to blame.

If the arm movement was a spasm then that's a defence (automatism) as it's not under your control.

If it's caused by different reasoning that's also a defence on medical grounds.

But maybe they didn't raise that as a defence in court (similar to drivers who say lash out at a bee in the car and cause an accident or have a heart attack)

It's getting worse for pedestrians, electric scooters and skateboards are a menace in some places. I used to work in a neighbouring town where skateboarding was very popular, narrow pavements and a skateboarder hurtling towards you can be pretty scary.

The pedestrian ADMITTED IN COURT THAT SHE DELIBERATELY MOVED HER ARM OUT TOWARDS THE CYCLIST AND THAT SHE MADE CONTACT. The only person involved in the altercation who isn’t dead says that’s what happened. Bizarre to try and make up defences of her when she admits that’s what happened.

And given even the police weren’t sure whether it was a shared cycling space, the Mumsnet super sleuths aren’t going to be able establish it and the cyclist was reasonable in her belief that it was a shared space.

Agree 100%

Whether the cyclist should have been on the pavement is neither here nor there which is probably why the police didn't pay much attention to the issue. If a non-violent gate crasher comes to my party and I confront them aggressively, resulting in them accidentally falling down my stairs, then the fact that they shouldn't have been in my house in the first place is no defence to a manslaughter charge.

I saw this story and thought she shouldn't have been prosecuted. She's walking down the pavement, she has mobility issues, a cyclist comes flying towards her, she's startled and reacts, a tragic accident occurs. That she went off afterwards might be an offence, I don't know, but should be treated separately.

Just remember, in court, the jury would have been shown a lot more evidence. The media have a small, redacted clip of CCTV.

There’s a reason this woman has been found guilty.

In fairness, if you push a cyclist in front of a car, and they die, then the issue of whether she was entitled to be where she was is pretty much legally irrelevant.

Extraordinary that some posters are effectively arguing 'she deserved to die, she was on the pavement'. Full-on Daily Mail lobotomies.

Lack of space for sharing has not historically stopped councils designating some pavements as shared spaces - certainly not in my area!

Look at the video closes. Her arm comes out at the very last second, when she's partly out of shot. She pushes her into the road.

I agree with this - lots of safe cycle paths, especially as the govt is very keen for people to stop using their cars.

In fairness, if you push a cyclist in front of a car, and they die, then the issue of whether she was entitled to be where she was is pretty much legally irrelevant.

This, too. The punishment for cycling on the pavement should not be death.