To think there is zero benefit to telling people who are lonely that this is bad for their health

[salutsandy]

Just heard a smug thing on the radio about how having no social contacts is the worst thing for your health. I've heard this before but it made me think, what if you're listening to that and you are lonely, what on earth is the point of this? A lot of people who are lonely do try to make friends, there are often threads about this on MN.

Agreed. On the other hand, there is maybe value in telling people about the value of weak ties.

That saying hello to people you meet dogwalking, waving to neighbours when you see them on the stairwell or over the fence, smiling at the person who serves you coffee, 5 secs about the weather to the librarian, chatting with someone over a video game, all those tiny unnoticed interactions matter a lot.

Also, we get stuck in this idea that friends only count if they tick a bunch of boxes.

You have to be able to call them at 2am, they have to invite you to their birthday parties (God forbid they ask you to replace a mate who dropped out), there can't be any money involved (why shouldn't a hairdresser count her clients as friends?). It's stifling and stressful and makes it so much harder to reach out.

You can have lots of friends but still feel excruciatingly lonely. So do they actually mean alone? Or the emotional experience of feeling lonely?

I'm not saying there isn't a real effect, just that a person who has nobody they would call at 3am but eats well, exercises daily, has a fulfilling well paid job, rewarding hobbies and a spaniel probably isn't who they are really looking at

Yes. Also is it better to be in bad relationships than no relationships? I'm sure before I'd read that things like saying hello to people in the street counted, but today's thing was different and said it was close relationships. I think there could be class elements as well, and surely people who are single are generally less financially well off. Plus men on their own might be less likely to go to the doctors or take as good care of their health.

Totally agree with Beatley. ... communities need people to engage with them and become part of the 'community' .. and that might involve stepping out of your comfort zone. And as another PP said, so many people on Mumsnet seem to love being in their 'little family' <boak>, refuse to answer the door, take in parcels for a neighbour etc etc .. so no wonder there is no sense of community and friendships formed. I felt sad for a recent poster who was trying to organise a street party for the Coronation but got lots of sneery comments.
FWIW I find it easy to make friends ... but I join things ... from helping to start up a Toddler and Baby group when we moved to a new village and knew no one, delivering meals on wheels, PTA, going to church, joining the WI, volunteering etc etc ... there are so many ways to meet people and make friends. The people I meet who say 'they don't have friends' just don't seem to be prepared to make the effort and only want a friendship on their terms or to meet clones of themselves.

You can have lots of friends but still feel excruciatingly lonely. So do they actually mean alone? Or the emotional experience of feeling lonely?

Yes that's not clear either

Also, we get stuck in this idea that friends only count if they tick a bunch of boxes
Yes, there's a lot of confusion around expectations I think. Most people wouldn't phone their friends at 3am or the like.

It's helpful if it encourages people to prioritise social contact. Those couples who 'only need each other', the men who don't bother because their wife does then she dies.

The men who let the family women do all the work of staying in touch, until they die and there are only men left.

If it helps people prioritise the time and energy involved in building relationships, then it's helpful.

My mum is suddenly interested in friendships now her husband has died. She's clueless. Thinks her friends should do what she wants all the time.
But at least she's trying.

@TheYearOfSmallThings
and can I add - being alone is not the same thing as being lonely. Far too often they are classed as being the same. They are not. It is perfectly possible to be alone and happy/content. It’s also possible to be surrounded by lots of friends/acquaintances/colleagues/family and yet be totally ignored and become very lonely.

Many lonely people are victims of their particular circumstances. People may have moved away or died, they may have small families, or simply lost touch with former friends.
I agree it's counter productive to tell lonely people that it's bad for their health. If they could do something about it, they would.

I think YABU as it's a radio programme, so is speaking to all people (not just those who are lonely)

And it's worth knowing about. So perhaps when you're in good shape, you remember to stay in touch with people who might fade if you don't make an effort, or perhaps embolden someone who's beginning to miss events that they really need to stick with it, or encourage someone to volunteer for a service that provides befrienders, or perhaps it'll lodge in the mind of a policy-maker who will think about what services should be funded (keeping things like lunch clubs going, or funding the odd excursion)

If you are not prepared to be someone someone calls in an emergency then don't be surprised when you have no one you can call in an emergency.

I think it's an important public message. It's something that people should include when weighing up the pros and cons of moving out of an area for whatever reason or 'going low contact's for trivial umbrages or when deciding how to spend their spare time. Family and friendship groups are an important part of our wellbeing but they are often treated as disposable 'nice to haves'.

That's such an important point pickle it is vital that couples maintain independent friendships and their own hobbies etc. My DM was recently widowed after 60 years of marriage... of course she is sad but she already had a wide circle of her 'own' friends and she is getting out and about with her hobbies, meeting friends and making new ones.
I've been married myself over 30 years but I wouldn't say my DH is my 'best' friend and neither would he say that about me. We have our own, separate friends and don't live in each other's pockets.

I don't have my phone on at 3am and no landline

Nor would I EVER call anyone at that time

What a load of SHASH

And they need to be reasonable. To develop a wide variety of contacts, and not expect the exclusive attention of one person/family.

It's as much about quantity as quality. If you need a favour every week, then you need a few people to share it about.

It helps if you are prepared to go the extra mile for someone else, too.

If you are not prepared to be someone someone calls in an emergency then don't be surprised when you have no one you can call in an emergency

Again it depends on circumstances. Some people will have a car, some people will be single parents, some people are disabled and can't physically help. It's one thing to meet people and try to enlarge friendship groups, but those kind of very close ties, outside of family, are likely to take decades to build up I'd have thought?

Great thread OP. The report on radio 4 I heard today was maybe connected. A longitudinal study in US has followed two cohorts for decades and found that the main predictors of health and happiness were not economic (the two groups were privileged/poorer) but good relationships and feeling belonging. The interviewee also emphasised the good effect of weak social relationships as PP mentioned (postie, neighbours, people on commute).

There was a fantastic interview in another R4 prog this morning (one to one I think) with a woman who grew up on Park Estate, Sheffield (council) where sense of community and belonging was amazing and moved to another so called nicer area where lots of neighbour rows and fighting. Instead of moaning she started getting kids together to mend bikes, cooked them all chips and do community stuff together weekly. She was an inspiration.

I don't know the specifics of this study, but most studies of loneliness use scales which distinguish between isolation (seeing no one) and loneliness (perceived deficit in the quality of one's relationships). So yes, it's possible to be isolated but not lonely or surrounded by people and lonely. It's the perception of loneliness that is usually seen as detrimental to health. Most studies find a mix of situational loneliness, which comes about through difficult circumstance such as bereavement, and a more chronic loneliness, which may spring from difficulties forming/sustaining relationships over a long period of time.

And I think the 3am thing is that sense that you know you could ring someone, not that you actually would!

I agree it must be hard to hear these findings if you are lonely, but it's perhaps a good message to others who may be dismissive if they don't experience loneliness themselves.

I suppose my mum would not mind me calling at 3am but it would need to be a lot more than upset and/or worried - we are talking someone is in resuscitation or dead. But what can anyone do at 3am? Very little, even in a life threatening situation I would wait until 8am to bother her.

I don't have anyone to call at 3am. If I didn't work and have a child with MH issues I'd have time for a support network.

I think people are taking the 3am thing literally. It's obviously meant to be an expression of, if you had an inconvenient yet personally urgent situation, do you have someone in your life who you're close enough with to contact and get help/love/care from. Sometimes that might be ringing at 3am with an emergency or turmoil in extremis, other times it might be "I'm stranded in a strange city, who can I turn to, even just for comfort and empathy?".

Also I think, knowledge is power. Scaremongering is one thing, and I don't agree with that - headlines like "loneliness takes years off your life" or whatever. That's just shaming and scary, unnecessarily. However, the knowledge that social connections, sense of community (and that can look different for different people), a the knowledge that people are watching out for you even in just a basic sense, all are so beneficial to humans that they enhance our health and prolong our lives, is a good thing. It's a fact, and people can be empowered by knowing these things. Problem is there's not the resources out there for many people affected by loneliness.

Good point above about the importance of “weak ties”. Nigella Lawson wrote about this topic during lockdown. It’s behind a paywall unfortunately but here is the link :

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nigella-lawson-makes-a-strong-case-for-weak-ties-vlszg3mpv

Lots of people simply don't value the mundane interactions of daily life- chatting with the check out person( if they are chatty), or responding when someone talks to you on the bus.

I hate when men try and chat to women for no good reason, but there's a middle ground!

Some people begrudge their friends and family having other friends. Articles like this Lend weight to the importance of wider contacts being important.

I just think people aren’t that fun any more.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am not a ‘oooh snowflake you can’t say anything these days’ and I’m not advocating a return to the days of mainstream racist or homophobic jokes.

But people seem so serious and intense now, full of ‘anxiety’ and constantly dwelling on their perceived misfortunes or ‘mental health’. It just feels like sense of humour and desire to have a laugh just aren’t there for a lot of people anymore.

My sister is very serious and intense like this, she met up with me and my close friend a couple of years and afterwards said she was ‘shocked to see us being so mean to each other’ there was no ‘meanness’, we were just bantering and teasing each other as we always have. I think she was a bit jealous if I’m honest, I think she would like that kind of honest friendship with somebody but just seems so self conscious around people, desperate to say the ‘right’ thing.

Of course I’m happy to listen and help my friends when they’re having a rough time, but it has to be fun most of the time doesn’t it?

*couple of years ago

@Moonicorn good point. Fun and laughter seem to have drained away to the far reaches of our society.
Fun and laughter have very much been lost to the cancel /woke culture. Too laugh is too have caused someone else a great injustice and harm. (I can’t be arsed to get involved with it all, and if that means no friends 🤷‍♀️)