Company wants me to pay back holiday days.

[Mooshamoo]

I started in a job in November 2022. We have an online annual leave system .
At the start of January 2023, 21 days on our online system became available to me for me to take.

I asked my manager could I take two weeks off at the start of the year. I took the last week of January and the first week of February off. This was approved by my manager. I took them. I was then moved to a new manager. Which was the way the company worked. New starters were with one manager. After two months you were changed to another manager

The company was pretty abusive and at the end of February I decided to leave.

I left. I then got an email from my second manager saying I had taken more annual leave days in the time I worked there, then I had accrued. And that I have to pay this annual leave money back. It is 550 euro. I'm in Ireland. This is a lot of money to me as i am now in between jobs.

Can they do this. My first manager who approved the annual leave days, never told me that I did not have enough annual leave days to take. She approved them. She never told me at any stage that if I left the company that I would have to pay these annual leave days back. If I had known that I wouldn't have taken them .

Can they do this to me now?

C'mon OP, "annual" leave has the clue in the title.

Oh drop the pretence it is really tedious. 🙄 Nobody is dumb enough to think they can use all of their “annual” leave when they have only worked there a couple of months.

Did you walk out without any notice period?

It seems really unprofessional that this wasn't all calculated and offset against your final settlement.

I could possibly say I would go back to the job, and they might take me back. It would make financial sense for me at the moment.

I'm just worried that If I go back I will look really bad for quitting, and that the managers will make my life even more of a misery if I go back.

Sorry, yes. I meant that it should be in the contract, of course, but I don’t think it’s the responsibility of HR/ her manager to then go through that contract to ensure that their new employee fully understands what each sentence of the contract means.

@Mooshamoo this is pretty much how every company works, as if they made you just take 2.5 days per month people wouldn't get to take any meaningful time off or go away for a week or more. They don't in good faith you're there for the year and if not you pay it back, it's how every company I've worked at has operated. Your manager wouldn't warn you as again they assume you're there all year or longer. It's not the answer you want but I hope they can give you a payment plan, I'd say all other places you work will have this policy too.

Hang on. If you are positive this is not in your contact, any other written agreement, or any document that states it forms part of your terms and conditions, they can't make you pay it back.

Employers are legally required to pay you for accrued holiday you haven't used. But it doesn't go the other way unless they have explicitly put this in writing in advance.

So if you are really sure they didn't, ignore them.

(HR person)

"If I had known that I wouldn't have taken them ." your comment sounds like you knew you were going to leave the company before you took the holiday? before you had a new manager you didn't like?

I am that dumb. Because obviously i wouldn't have left if I had known!

What is the point in saying "no one can be that dumb".

When I've shown you that I am that dumb! Obviously I wouldn't have left a job and then have to pay them.back 700 euro, if I had known!.

Can we ascertain once and for all: yes I am that dumb. I really didn't know. I wouldn't have done this to myself if I had known that.

I think we can all stop explaining this to the Op and calling her stupid - she's got the message and she's very upset, so maybe don't make it worse for her?

@Mooshamoo I'm sorry you're going through this and it's causing you stress. I hope your mum has recovered from her illness. Please warn your colleague so that you can stop her making the same mistake you did. Have a long walk and then come back and make a plan - How you are going to get another job, pay your living costs and arrange a way to pay back the money you owe your old job.

And, well done for leaving a toxic work environment, I hope your next job is much better!

i think you have several issues here.
(expecting the answer no) are you in a union? join one so you don't get shafted in your next job

Sorry, it all feels like complete shit but maybe you can go back (if they have a retention problem they might be ok about that) and work until you have "accrued" enough leave to quit again?

The best thing you can do in the circumstances is call HR of your previous employer and explain the situation. They will more than likely be able to enter into a payment arrangement with you to make affordable repayments. As long as you are engaging with them and taking steps to address it, it is unlikely they will take further action. The worst thing you can do here is bury your head in the sand. Hope you are ok.

Did you get anything in writing from them at all? Did you sign any contract when you first started, even if you didn’t read it? If you are 100% sure that you didn’t sign a contract then you might be able to get out of paying it back.

I’m not saying go back completely I’m saying work an extra 2 weeks to cover the shortfall.
If you hate the job as much as you say then certainly don’t stay there any longer than you need to be.
This is a lesson for you to learn from. And in future ask if you’re unsure.
Can I ask about your age? I know a few PP have but I can’t see your answer. Not to be harsh but often job things get explained to us by parents.

And if you’re 18/19/20 this makes more sense.
We all make mistakes- I remember when I was 18 and started driving I thought I only had to pay car insurance for one year! Embarrassing now to admit but I bet most posters could tell you a similar story.

Yes they can. You left before earning those holiday days. Now you must pay them back.

Yes they can absolutely do this.

Yes

OP - what did you think Annual leave meant?

I think we all know you get that now

But it felt you were blaming everyone but yourself about it

You made a mistake it happens you learnt and can move on now

YABU. You cannot blame them. This is on you to inform yourself of.

OP, it’s ‘annual’ leave entitlement, you can’t just expect to work for less than 2 months of the year and the eligible to take leave that’s meant for 12 months.
Like you can take the leave whenever you want as sometimes, people might have travel plans in Jan but nothing for the rest of the year so they take it in Jan but they know they’re expected to work for the rest of the year with no leave left or if they leave the company, they pay it back.
The best thing for you now is to just put the whole issue of why you left aside, you don’t have a job now and owe your company, you shouldn’t have left without working your notice as that way, the company will be able to take back what you owe, just go back to them and ask if they’ll allow you to work your notice so use that to pay them back

I think right now it sounds like you don’t have a choice financially unfortunately. Ask if they will have you back. Remember in your own mind that it is only temporary until you find a new job. Make a plan for how you will repay the AL.

In your shoes I’d be tempted to keep a diary of their awful behaviour to employees so you can report them after you leave. But depends if that would make it more bearable for you (it would for me).

It’s all a learning curve and I think you’re getting a hard time here. I was dreadfully naive when I started work.

OP, if you're not working (and therefore not earning), can you go back until you've worked enough to cover the amount owed?

What was your plan going forward regardless of this?

Also, OP in case you're still reading: read through your contract. If you have a friend or family member around ask them to read it too, just in case there really is nothing in there about leave and paying it back.

Because if it isn't, you can reply to them that you will be keeping to the terms of your contract and it isn't mentioned in there. In any case this will give you a bit of breathing space and they might back off. If they still insist, ask them for a payment plan for what you can afford, which will be about EUR 20 per month, won't it. It is worth a try (it is worth a try even if it is in your contract.)

Could you ask for them to accept a monthly repayment? Any idea when you may be able to secure another employment?

Everyone's just ignoring the actual HR person advice.

Yes, this is how it usually works. But they can't if it isn't in her contract/other documents.