To think most parents would be unhappy with their child being taught by a 19yo apprentice?

[Postapocalypticcowgirl]

schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-developing-teaching-apprenticeship-for-non-graduates/

The DfE are developing an apprentice scheme for teaching for people without degrees.

I think there are some serious problems with this idea, but this isn't about those, really.

I'm just thinking about the attitude that some posters have towards NQTs (IE they don't want their child taught by them) and I'm curious as to what posters think.

In terms of voting, I'd like people to vote not on whether they think it's a good idea overall, but just on whether they would be happy with their child being taught by a 19yo apprentice who's just left college/sixth form.

YABU - I would be happy with this for my children.
YANBU- I would not be happy with this for my children.

I do assume at least at the start, it would be under the supervision of an experienced teacher, hopefully with them in the classroom full time. But to make it viable for schools the apprentice would likely have to be unsupervised at least some of the time pretty quickly. I do think it would be much more involved than initial placements on primary teaching degrees AND this specifically targeting secondary level.

I can’t see how an apprentice on a good training programme would be worse than having completely unqualified TAs regularly teaching whole classes or groups which is currently what is happening in many primary schools.

I also think a teacher trained through an apprenticeship is likely to make a better teacher than one who did a media studies degree and a PGCE.

@Hobbi do your research before you tell someone what they’ve said is nonsense.

Look up QTLS status. Many teachers have achieved a diploma in teaching in the lifelong learning sector and have then completed the bridging assignment to gain QTLS.

No degree. Qualified teacher.

I would be surprised if my paid research in this area was inferior to yours. You are talking about a niche route, which doesn't lead to QTS.

The thing is, the bar for getting a degree used to be higher. Now, the entry criteria for some degrees are so low that it isn't necessarily a good benchmark for the skills needed to teach core primary school subjects. There are too many primary teachers who are under confident at maths/science, or whose english grammar and spelling is poor. The entry criteria for teaching needs higher grades for these basics, more than it needs a degree.

It's not a good comparison. Good education administrations train teachers via an undergraduate program, recruiting the best candidates by making the profession attractive. A route that produces slightly better teachers than in a terrible situation is not the answer.

Absolutely agree @brilll .

@Hobbi id ask for a refund. You are wrong.

it’s an alternative route into teaching. You are a qualified teacher as long as you keep your membership with the SET in place as this ensures you have QTLS status.

You are given a QTS number once you’re employed in a school as a teacher.

i won’t be responding to your condescending messages again. I don’t care what YOU think you know I just wanted others to be aware ✌🏻

Surely the best way to learn to be a teacher is actually teaching - in the classroom? I'm not sure why teachers need a degree, other than maybe for knowing their subject well enough at secondary.

You add the last bit as though it's an unimportant afterthought . Teachers need to be more qualified in their subject than the people they're teaching (including A Level students). They need mastery, depth and breadth in their subject. That is a separate element from the ability to manage behaviour, use different teaching methods etc, and you don't get it through teaching.

There are too many primary teachers who are under confident at maths/science, or whose english grammar and spelling is poor.

Definitely. My dc used to correct their (lovely) primary teacher's spelling and grammar or tell me about mistakes he made. He was the Headteacher too (tiny primary)! I can't get too worked up about an otherwise good secondary school science or PE teacher not having impeccable SPaG, but when it's actually part of what you're supposed to be teaching children, it's really not ok.

It's not ok. That's why we need to attract the best candidates, as they do in countries with good education systems. We also need to recognise that we can't keep looking for quicker and cheaper routes into the job.

Even a media studies teacher??

Astounding subject snobbery there. Well done.

This person might even have A levels in , you know. English. Fat lot of use they'd be to teaching.

How can I get a refund for something I was paid to do? I said you mentioned a niche route, and you did. QTLS represents less than 4% of the potential workforce (only in the years it has existed) and isn't a qualification in its own right.

Gove in 2010 wanted all teachers to have at least a 2:2. They wanted to make teaching a masters level profession.

Now the Tories have got rid of the literacy and numeracy tests because that weeded out too many teachers who couldn't pass them, and they're also looking at trying to get people to train as teachers who haven't even got a degree. Bursaries have gone through the roof.

All these emergency provisions to try to shore up the training of teachers and nothing about trying to retain teachers once trained.

The announcement a few days ago that experienced teachers will, this September get another enormous pay cut is just the icing on the cake.

I love the idea some people have that these apprentice teachers (or nay teachers for that matter) has A*s in the A level they teach and 7+ in Eng/Maths. You think apprenticeships will set the bar higher than undergraduate degrees and PGCEs?

It's all about the warm bodies...

IME the LSA's are doing so much of the teaching these days. Poorly paid. DD's maths homework has been marked I correctly twice (same one which I challenged) by the LSA. Teacher was oblivious. Education system is failing for many reasons. Pay, lack of diversity in the curriculum, all attention on SEN so those children who are doing ok are largely ignored, tick box mentality. I feel for teachers and understand the strikes. This country is utterly fucked.

*incorrectly

Sorry my terminology might be incorrect and I apologise. TA not LSA.

Is that secondary or primary ladyG out of interest?

Enthusiasm and energy don't actually beat subject knowledge, ability to teach and definitely not teaching experience.

We've seen this before, 'oh, the teachers moaning about their pay and conditions can just retire and be replaced by fresh, enthusiastic NQTs'. Aside from the fact that no one wants to be an NQT anymore, hence the grubbing around by the government for anyone who they might actually be able to get onto a teacher training course, experienced teachers know that all new teachers are a bit shit at the job.

Parents might see enthusiasm and think 'marvellous', but people who actually know how to teach know there's no substitute for actual experience.

Junior school

When I was a young teacher I was possibly enthusiastic. I also burned the candle at both ends , was in a state of reasonably permanent hangover and fairly lazy.

When I was 19 , I was still learning , but meeting new people, having fun, travelling around, experiencing life. Odd to want to shackle 19 year olds. And then 30 years later tell them on MN that their problem is they have never been in the Real World.

That said, I'd be surprised if most of these apprentices are 'young and enthusiastic'.

Yes, piggy, literally no idea who this is aimed at.

Still, they spent millions on Troops to Teachers and that got fuck-all teachers out of it too, so they're not averse to spending taxpayer money on setting up teacher training routes with no takers.

Parents might see enthusiasm and think 'marvellous', but people who actually know how to teach know there's no substitute for actual experience.

This. There are enthusiastic and less enthusiastic teachers of all ages and experience levels. Youth is no guarantee of sparkling enthusiasm. Years of teaching are at least a guarantee of experience.

Reading this thread is so depressing. It really shows how little some people understand and value education.

I can’t actually see many parents being thrilled that their class has got the 19 year old apprentice with a B in maths instead of Mrs X who’s been teaching A level for 25 years when it boils down to who gets which ‘teacher’.