To think most parents would be unhappy with their child being taught by a 19yo apprentice?

[Postapocalypticcowgirl]

schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-developing-teaching-apprenticeship-for-non-graduates/

The DfE are developing an apprentice scheme for teaching for people without degrees.

I think there are some serious problems with this idea, but this isn't about those, really.

I'm just thinking about the attitude that some posters have towards NQTs (IE they don't want their child taught by them) and I'm curious as to what posters think.

In terms of voting, I'd like people to vote not on whether they think it's a good idea overall, but just on whether they would be happy with their child being taught by a 19yo apprentice who's just left college/sixth form.

YABU - I would be happy with this for my children.
YANBU- I would not be happy with this for my children.

I do assume at least at the start, it would be under the supervision of an experienced teacher, hopefully with them in the classroom full time. But to make it viable for schools the apprentice would likely have to be unsupervised at least some of the time pretty quickly. I do think it would be much more involved than initial placements on primary teaching degrees AND this specifically targeting secondary level.

I agree with teachers who are less knowledgeable about educational theory being unable to argue with management. Drones.

Missing full stop after 'agree'. Sorry.

Those saying it would be under the supervision of a qualified teacher, I don't think it would be viable for schools to pay someone an apprenticeship wage and have a class teacher in the class too full time.

Accademies and free schools don't have to have a qualified teacher in front of the class. There's nothing that necessarily says the apprentice would be supervised all the time.

With current ITT routes, the provider sets requirements for supervision. In the case of paid routes such as teach first, the trainee is often left unsupervised pretty quickly. But at least they are in their 20s and have a degree.

In terms of TAs teaching, yes HLTAs especially teach a lot BUT they have experience and are older. Part of the issue for me is the potential lack of age gap between the students and the apprentice.

If you read the article this is specifically targeting secondary level.

At the moment children are taught by people without a traditional teaching degrees all the time suchas TAs, cover supervisors and unqualified teachers you just aren't aware of it.

I taught as an unqualified teacher for years having started as a TA although I do have a degree, my department were supportive and I had more regular lesson observations and feedback than other teaching staff, in the end I decided not to go into teaching. However being in the workplace gave me a more realistic understanding of what teaching required instead of those who go straight back to the classroom from Uni with a mountain of student debt (I still have student debt but didn't fork out for a PGCE) then leave before the end of their training which is happening frequently. I enjoyed the teaching part of the job but left for a job with better work-life balance. Teaching lends itself well to work based learning providing the apprentice has time off timetable to catch up and cover their own training too.

You are assuming this, but how would that be viable for schools?

People who do salaried routes are not supervised in the same way.

BEd degrees aren't used widely at secondary level - part of my concern is the lack of age gap.

Well it is, because those people have a degree and are therefore nearly always at least 22 when they start.

A significant part of my concern is the potential lack of age gap (and maturity) in secondary.

I don't think all the apprentices would be young, I'm sure some would be older.

But I think it's very likely some of the candidates would be younger and schools wouldn't be allowed to discriminate on the basis of age.

In secondary, I genuinely do think having people work there who are only a little older than the oldest students raises issues for everyone, and this is a major part of my concern.

I would have no problem with it at all at primary level.

In senior school I would be fine with an apprentice who got an A at A-Level in a particular subject teaching that subject in y7-9 but would be very unhappy if they were being taught at that age by someone who either didn't have an A-level in that subject or had a low grade. For GCSE and A-Level classes I would feel being degree-qualified is indispensable. Not just for the more in-depth understanding of the subject (I know that fully qualified teachers are licenced to teach in any subject not just their degree subject) but for the independent study skills and additional experience of complex learning that ensures the teacher is definitely well ahead of the students they are teaching.

When my mum became a teacher, it was possible to become a teacher without any teaching qualifications at all if you held a masters degree in any subject. she didn't want to do a PGCE so did an MA on a subject she was genuinely interested in, and was then considered sufficiently qualified despite no knowing a thing about education theory of learning techniques that might be the syllabus for a formal teaching qualifications.

its no different to "teach first" or "now teach"

erm….yes, it’s different. Those people have a degree for a start.

See, I would have major concerns about that.

BEd routes into secondary are very rare and I don't know any schools with sixth forms who take BEd trainees.

And the placements on the first year of a BEd degree are different to being in a school full time.

that is ridiculously pedantic - any teacher training university department is called a "teacher training college", just like any doctor training university department is called a "medical school"

I'd expect them to go to university and get a teaching qualification, or get a teaching qualification after their degree which is the current route now....

I don't like the idea because I don't believe for one second it's being done in the children's best interest and that the government will ensure it's high quality training.

They've already removed the right of children to a qualified teacher and classes are already being taught by whoever they can get in a room, regardless of specialism or qualifications.

Certain academy chains are already very corporate in their approved approach and already have a monopoly on job based ITT.

This poster hits the nail on the head:
I agree with teachers who are less knowledgeable about educational theory being unable to argue with management. Drones.

If you're only trained in your academy chains method, delivering centrally dictated PowerPoint and plans from several layers of 'directors of...' in central management, then you're not going to have the broad knowledge to ask questions.

All I can say is I doubt the children of MPs will be subjected to the narrowing curriculum, revolving door of teachers, teachers without relevant degrees or industry experience.

It’s a desperate attempt to get new teachers. My DC are frequently taught by supply teachers with no relevant qualifications in the subject - it’s just an adult in the classroom to stop all hell breaking out. State education is fucked but what do this bunch of Tory toffs care?

I'd love to see a scheme where a good LSA/TA without a degree could stay in the classroom and be an apprentice teacher.
So many of them are amazing but don't get the opportunity to develop due to not having a degree.

Having worked as a cover supervisor, an untrained supply teacher employed by a school, this route seems far more sensible. At least the low paid staff who are there to plug the gap with qualified teachers will be being trained.

@CaptainMyCaptain There has been no such thing as 'teacher training college' since the 1970s but you are correct that a student doing an Education degree at university will be in the classroom in their first year. They would, however, be under supervision at all times.

In what way? There is a teacher training college near me and I can tell you I am not in the 1970s.

Rather an enthusiastic 19yr old than a jaded 50yr old who hates their job but won't leave. Some of my kids' best teachers were NQTs

Sure, Behind every successful NQT is a mentor who knows what they’re doing, standing outside the loo waiting for them to stop crying. A mentor who guides, supports, offers ideas, provides resources and just generally is around for a chat. Unfortunately, all those jaded 50 year olds who have left have been joined by those in their 30s and 40s and as a result, ECTs are frequently on their own. Any teacher in the ever-growing Facebook group knows that our trainees and ECTs are increasingly unsupported and disillusioned and are not making it past the first couple of years.

This may be a way of plugging a recruitment gap. But the real issue is the challenge of retention.

and just so we’re clear, many of the capable 50 something teachers out there - like me- have their pick of jobs in the best state and independent schools. I left state schools 10 years ago and have never looked back - my creativity and experience is welcomed, paid for, and has been further developed with freedom from the NC. Be careful what you wish for. The state schools around me hav3 been decimated, behaviour is appalling and good results are for those who’s parents pay for tutors.

Teaching is a skilled profession and imo requires a degree and training as well as practical experience not to mention maturity. This is no solution at all. You can’t just ‘learn on the job’ at that age.

After the shitsh*w of Covid when we all became bloody teachers, i’m pretty sure most of us would have happily turned our children over to 19 year old apprentices!
i presume they would have relevant support within the classroom for their training. My child has TA and classroom assistants of other parents who give their free time to go
and help out. I wouldn’t be too concerned within Primary School.

I do remember an ex friend who is a teacher getting their knickers in a twist when being told her child was going to be taught by a NQT in reception…. until I pointed out that she was once a NQT too 🙄

You realise that currently ‘get a teaching qualification after their degree’ basically just means they get shoved in a classroom right after that geography degree with pretty much no experience in teaching?

I’m a HLTA. I’m A level educated and have worked in schools for 15 years. I really do t think a degree is necessary to teach the primary curriculum. I do think there needs to be a good standard of English and maths though. Having said that, I have worked with many degree educated teachers with poor grammar and spelling!

If the scheme is well structured, teachers training in the job can be a great route. Our nephew did something similar, albeit aged 21 and having graduated with a first in Maths. Pretty certain he didn’t get his own class straightaway

TAs are apprentices in schools at 16.

At 21 a teacher could be fully qualified by going through uni (where they will still teach in schools for experience) so it isn't really any different.

Read the article - they're specifically targeting shortage subjects at secondary.

Would you be happy with an apprentice teaching your child the bulk of their maths degree.

There's no way most schools could afford a qualified teacher and apprentice in the classroom for the whole of the apprenticeship either.