To embrace my emotional detachment?

[herewegoroundthebastardbush]

DP and I are a bad fit. But we have two young kids, work reasonably effectively as a parenting/childcare/household management team, no overriding reason to end things - would not make life overall 'better' for my kids, would improve some things for them but make others worse, so no clear indications to jump as I am not one of those self-indulgent people who believes happy mum automatically equals happy kids. Just to forestall all the people telling me to LTB.

I have spent a number of years trying to fix what is wrong with our relationship - initiating discussions, suggesting solutions, trying to practice gratitude and patience and ignore the things that wind me up, being assertive, bending over backwards to make him happy, blah blah blah. All with pretty much no emotional input from him, he just carries on doing what he does, honestly believes he should just be allowed to behave however he feels without any consideration for how it impacts on me. We go through good and bad patches, largely dictated by his moods.

This last couple of weeks has been a bad patch - he's stressed at work, there's a few issues with the house and we have a toddler so of course that's relentless. He got a bit ill as well. I did everything I could to try and take load off him, be sympathetic etc, but he still talks to me like shit (he says he's just annoyed, not annoyed AT me, but I don't care I don't like being constantly spoken to in an angry sulky way when I'm just trying to help). We then had a discussion where I just tried to get him to acknowledge I wasn't being unreasonable to expect to be spoken to in a nice way, and he just flatly wouldn't say it. Just wouldn't answer, like a sulky teen.

Since then I've more or less left him to it - we do our usual tag teaming of kids and chores, but in our free time after they're in I've been avoiding him, getting on with my own thing, reading a book etc. Normally when we've had a spat I'd be taking a deep breath and 'making up' somehow, I feel really uncomfortable with a bad atmosphere and will usually roll over so we can move on. And actually I have a couple of times, when he's come to find me, initiated friendly discussions but at some point he'll start being miserable or grouchy again and I've just switched off.

I feel this total disconnect - like if I never spoke to him about anything consequential again I'd be totally fine with that, like I don't want to be near him or make up with him at all, I just want to be left alone. I'm never usually like this, I worry about him/us and feel rubbish unless we have 'sorted things out' or moved on somehow. But It's been years; nothing ever really changes; he doesn't think there's anything about him that should change; and I've done everything I can and more. I've had enough.

What does this feeling portend, wise Mumsnetters? Have I checked out? Is this the end? Or can I just plough along like this and in the absence of me capitulating and appeasing, will he finally actually take some responsibility for trying to nurture our relationship? It's so weird to know he's probably not happy right now and feel absolutely no inclination to do anything about that whatsoever.

I went through a longish phase of thinking this - read Lundy Bancroft and became fully convinced he was manipulating me deliberately - but over time I've realised it's really not like that, he's just utterly emotionally illiterate, doesn't understand his own feelings half the time let alone mine, and so everything gets translated into anger or anxiety. He doesn't know how to be happy because he doesn't really understand what it is. I think that's part of why sex is so important to him, it furnishes feelings of connection and love which he is otherwise completely unable to access or express.

I wish it were as simple as him being the bad guy and me being his victim, but it isn't. I feel sorry for him in a way. But I have just utterly run out of fucks to give at this point.

It might not be deliberate but he will be well aware of the end result.

This is so difficult op. I admire your willingness to embrace pragmatism and objectivity in your situation. I imagine many marriages are comprises between practicality, emotion and circumstance.
I also really admire your honesty about your own shortcomings (I can very much identify with the organisational challenges!)

The trouble is, I think there is a good chance that this will all implode when your dc reach adolescence. They are young now and fairly malleable but soon they will have minds and opinions of their own and will start to reflect, challenge and mirror the environment in which they are being brought up.

Adolescents have a tendency to expose any cracks in a marriage and they will no longer be passive observers. Ideally you need the support of an emotionally supportive partner to get through this difficult period especially if the teens themselves start acting out issues exacerbated by their environment.

The other thing I would like to challenge is your statement “self indulgent people who believes happy mum automatically equals happy kids”. I used to be of the same opinion and was doing ok until adolescence struck, but then it all wore me down emotionally. Trust me, you need reasonably good mh to parent teens well. The chronic stress of living in an emotionally volatile and uncertain situation will eventually take its toll on you and the dc.

If you read any books emerging from current research in neuro-science, our emotional wellbeing is very much tied up with our physical health, and chronic stress can have very profound negative effects on growing dc.

I’m to know why are you so willing to allow your dp his assumed boundary of “no sex being unacceptable to him” but do not allow yourself to set the boundary of not being spoken to like crap? Boundaries are about what is acceptable to US.

I don’t pretend to know what the answer is op as no one in here can judge better than you, but I think I would be taking the long view and slowly working my way towards separation and independent living I think. Presumably you have some doubts about “grey rocking” through the rest of your married life - at least until the dc are grown - or you wouldn’t have posted? Good luck with whatever you decide. Neither decision is easy and there will be pros and cons attached to both.

I’m also interested to know why

Sorry what I was trying to say is that it’s hard raising adolescents if you don’t have an emotionally supportive partner but it’s almost impossible, not to mention intolerable, if you are battling with your dp as well as your teens.

Plus dc don’t do what you say, they do what you do. The best strategy for parenting (as Bear Grylls of all people said) is always: “example, example, example.”

How would you feel if a son of yours grew up to think speaking disrespectfully to their partner was acceptable? How would you feel if you saw your daughter being spoken to disrespectfully by their partner and ignored it for pragmatic reasons?

Do you want your dc to make major life decisions borne out of of fear or positivity? (That last sentence is unfair as it’s evident you have the welfare of your dc at the forefront of your mind op and no situation is black and white - and in some circumstances research shows that teens sometimes may prefer the benefits and stability of a two person two income family despite all the attendant difficulties - but it’s worth considering I think.)

Your husband is unhappy in either his job, in your current home or with life in general and from what you said no matter what he has its never going to be enough. Your trying to keep him happy by having sex with him even though he speaks to you badly.
You have told him how you feel and his attitude is so what and he continues to do what he has always done. Over the past few weeks you have had another bad patch and at this stage you had enough.

The reality is that he is an adult. He needs to take some responsibility here and work on improving how he deals with stress and life in general. He can't be coming home, saying nasty thing to you and creating a bad atmosphere in your home. Your kids are seeing this and as they get older they will grow up thinking this is normal. They will accept been treated badly or take verbal abuse from their oh later on.

I know you don't want to get a divorce but you and your husband are both adults. Your trying hard to make things work but he refuses to make any changes.
I would gather up all your financial details including pensions and go to divorce solicitor to see what would happen if you got a divorce and how it would impact on your finances.

I would then chat to your husband and tell him that you want him to go to marriage counselling with you because you realise that your marriage needs some help.
I would not have sex with him again either unless he is willing to do this.
Unless he is willing to do this I would tell him that you have decided to get a divorce because your no longer going put up with his moods and lack of effort for your marriage.

It's not fair on your kids to be living in a house with a man like him. Why should you be their to listen to his verbal abuse either? As you kids get older they will notice more. They won't want their friends over because of grumpy dad. You better off getting them out of this situation now and arranging things properly so you both spend time with your kids.
Ok you may not have as much money in the future but your kids deserve to have a happy childhood.

You're not modelling self-respect and boundaries by emotionally detaching when your husband treats you badly.

This is exactly what my mother does. She just switches off when my stepfather picks arguments, makes fun of her, generally treats her like shit. We've talked about it and she's explained that she knows his behaviour is not OK but that this is her way to deal with it.

Meanwhile I have to listen to it and find myself feeling completely impotent and incandescent with rage. I end up swallowing my feelings or I lash out at him. I'm at the point of going no contact with them (again).

I am astonished you think this is somehow a 'least bad' outcome for your children.

I have been exactly where you are and as a last ditch we tried couples therapy. I was sceptical but it really worked for us and we are in a better place now than we have been for years. When there is nothing to lose it is worth a try.

I’d be interested to know what your relationship was like at the beginning- presumably there was something to it? Is it a question or him (or you) changing over time or do you think you were always a bad fit?

To be completely honest, based on what you’ve said I think you’re underestimating the likely effect of all this on your children and giving them an idea of relationships which is presumably a long way from the sorts of relationships you would wish for them. Even 50-50 is better than appearing to condone the way things are between you and your husband. There are plenty of posts on here by people who resent the fact their mother stayed in a dysfunctional relationship, despite the fact she may well have done it for the sake of the children. However I appreciate it’s easy to say all that when it’s not me who has to do it.

Sounds like a plan.

Suit yourself and stay detached.

He's a waster and you are now done.

Start planning for your future when he will no longer be of use and you can dump him.

Focus your energies on you and your life.

I certainly don't blame you.

Madness is doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different result.

You are done.

"I will NEVER have another relationship if this one fails because the more I see of men I just think too many of them are selfish, immature tossers with limited emotional intelligence and not worth the bother"

Amen to that! I suspect (and hope) we are moving to a society in which a serious, long-term relationship is the exception rather than the norm. Far too many people rush into them and ruin their lives. If I had to list the things that have brought me most joy and happiness in my life, relationships wouldn't be there. It would be books, art, nature, flowers, dogs, friends, the seasons, etc. Relationships would be classed alongside work – sometimes fulfilling and joyful, but mostly miserable, exhausting and a waste of time.

I'm not anti-relationship, and I'm not anti-men (I've known plenty of nice men trapped with awful women). But you need to be 100% sure before moving in together, having kids, etc. The majority of people would be better off not bothering. I often wonder what will happen if silicon valley really does find ways of slowing and reversing ageing. If people can't endure living together for 40 or 50 years, how the hell will they put up with it for 200? Will new forms of relationship evolve? Communes? Polygamy? Committed but living apart? and so on...They will have to.

The problem, I think, is that while sex is natural, and also love and intimacy and affection, living together in a brick box year in year out isn't. Your situation is a classic example. He doesn't sound like a bad man. He's just a miserable, selfish, self-pitying manbaby. There is a woman living with a selfish manbaby in every street in Britain.

I see your predicament. And I admire you for putting your children first. If you decide to stay, you won't be alone, believe me. I know several women (and men) whose marriage is a sham, and who only stay together for the kids (or the house). If you yearned for love and intimacy with another man, I'd say leave. But you don't. I'd also urge you to leave if he was abusive or vile. Since you don't want another relationship, and he isn't abusive, maybe staying really is the best option. Housing in the UK is so expensive, and so bloody awful (tiny houses all squashed together, problem families next door, etc) that leaving could land you in a ghastly mess. That said, I doubt you'd miss him. A counsellor once told me that women very rarely regret leaving their husbands. On the contrary, they're generally angry they didn't do it sooner.

If I was in your situation, I'd stop making so much effort. I wouldn't provoke a row, and I wouldn't give up on him, but I'd stop doing all I could to please him. It will backfire. To him, it will become the norm, and the manbaby will have a new mummy to soothe his tantrums and sulks. If things continue to deteriorate, I mean to the point where all love has ceased, and you're sick of the sight of him, have it out. Explain that this can't go on, but that you think it's best to stay together for the children. Then do what so many couples do – live separate lives.

If you stay you will have to detach to survive, but that takes it toll too. Its a hard way to live. You will probably find that things will deteriorate over time, not just in the relationship but mentally and emotionally too. Someone on here once said, ' being in a bad relationship slowly erodes you, like water over a stone'. Its true.

And its hard not to have a 'home', a true safe and relaxing space as you are living with someone you essentially do not like.

If you stay, build up your own life separately from him. And do your best to build up your own circumstances to improve your situation if you do leave.

For some reason your other posts didn't load, but I have now read them.

His behaviour will negatively impact the children particularly if it is linked to sex.

How you have been able to is beyond me.

Be very very careful, sex with someone that you don't want to be near is dehumanising, massively detrimental to your mental health and too awful to be borne.

I think you need in the short term to really monitor HIS behaviour because he is damaging the children and it will definitely impact them.

A smaller less salubrious home with a loving calm mother, ie a safe place, will not do a fraction of the damage being with him will.

Might he step up and be less grumpy if he looked after them solely?

Your children won't long be voting with their feet.

Exploring all your options is key.

You sound like a wonderful mother and woman.

As a child of parents who took far too long to divorce, the pain of living with that far outweighed any consequences of the divorce itself (and it was nasty). You dont need to replicate your mother/step father, and , you already know that. And your children can choose what home they live in most of the time from about age 13. So in true mumsnet style I suggest you start getting your ducks in a row, because that will line up the best possible outcome for you (and yes by extension your children). You're already done, now its just a matter of when and how.

Yes, you've definitely checked out. Most of us can relate to 'We love each other but we're not in love'. You've just realised you don't love him.....at all. You don't respect or care for him either. This might seem like a bit of light relief/escapism but it'll be short lived. There's no buffer now. Youve reached the point of no return. Before you had lovebofca sorts, before you had hope. Whilst you stay with him this is as good as it gets. Without hope you'll realise that's shit. Next step resentment. Stay and you'll become bitter.

Don’t you want your children to have better role models for marriage? They’ll end up repeating your mistakes and then you’ll regret staying

I'm struck by how you keep comparing the situation that is actually happening today with potential future imagined situations, and using that to justify allowing today's dysfunctions to continue.

Also by how your thinking is quite entrenched in black and white. Divorce is catastrophic. Relationships are all disastrous. Men are all useless. Nothing can be fixed so why take any risks.

Some counselling to go through your thinking processes might really help.

Your subsequent posts since I last posted have made me think OP. I think my lack of sex drive also impacted on my ex husband and his moods. With his behaviour I also could not go there. I felt very invalidated and not cared for. Because of that we didn’t have sex. Because of that he felt very invalidated and cared for. Now we are just friends that might well explain his change of mood.

We are honestly in a better place now we have decided to split. He is much more interactive as a dad. I don’t fear him having them 50/50 because he’s no longer a grump. We are both looking forward to it actually.

Whatever you decide I wish you well.

^^ sorry typo… he felt invalidated and uncared for