To embrace my emotional detachment?

[herewegoroundthebastardbush]

DP and I are a bad fit. But we have two young kids, work reasonably effectively as a parenting/childcare/household management team, no overriding reason to end things - would not make life overall 'better' for my kids, would improve some things for them but make others worse, so no clear indications to jump as I am not one of those self-indulgent people who believes happy mum automatically equals happy kids. Just to forestall all the people telling me to LTB.

I have spent a number of years trying to fix what is wrong with our relationship - initiating discussions, suggesting solutions, trying to practice gratitude and patience and ignore the things that wind me up, being assertive, bending over backwards to make him happy, blah blah blah. All with pretty much no emotional input from him, he just carries on doing what he does, honestly believes he should just be allowed to behave however he feels without any consideration for how it impacts on me. We go through good and bad patches, largely dictated by his moods.

This last couple of weeks has been a bad patch - he's stressed at work, there's a few issues with the house and we have a toddler so of course that's relentless. He got a bit ill as well. I did everything I could to try and take load off him, be sympathetic etc, but he still talks to me like shit (he says he's just annoyed, not annoyed AT me, but I don't care I don't like being constantly spoken to in an angry sulky way when I'm just trying to help). We then had a discussion where I just tried to get him to acknowledge I wasn't being unreasonable to expect to be spoken to in a nice way, and he just flatly wouldn't say it. Just wouldn't answer, like a sulky teen.

Since then I've more or less left him to it - we do our usual tag teaming of kids and chores, but in our free time after they're in I've been avoiding him, getting on with my own thing, reading a book etc. Normally when we've had a spat I'd be taking a deep breath and 'making up' somehow, I feel really uncomfortable with a bad atmosphere and will usually roll over so we can move on. And actually I have a couple of times, when he's come to find me, initiated friendly discussions but at some point he'll start being miserable or grouchy again and I've just switched off.

I feel this total disconnect - like if I never spoke to him about anything consequential again I'd be totally fine with that, like I don't want to be near him or make up with him at all, I just want to be left alone. I'm never usually like this, I worry about him/us and feel rubbish unless we have 'sorted things out' or moved on somehow. But It's been years; nothing ever really changes; he doesn't think there's anything about him that should change; and I've done everything I can and more. I've had enough.

What does this feeling portend, wise Mumsnetters? Have I checked out? Is this the end? Or can I just plough along like this and in the absence of me capitulating and appeasing, will he finally actually take some responsibility for trying to nurture our relationship? It's so weird to know he's probably not happy right now and feel absolutely no inclination to do anything about that whatsoever.

I do understand where you are coming from, and respect your perspective as somebody who has experienced parental separation from the child's side. There are no ideal outcomes in this scenario. All I can say is that XP is a grumpy stresshead too - I feel shit that my DS has to put up with his behaviour. But life is so much better NOT living with him, and my time with DS is so much more harmonious and enjoyable than it would be if we were still a family. We have so many great times together and lovely holidays (cheap ones!) that I know would be impossible if I was still with XP. DS can also see that I am living my life as I want, and is very clear about his dad's shortcomings. Yes there is arguably a self-indulgent element to all this but I know for a fact that if I had stayed with XP I would be a much less happier person, and a much angrier, resentful parent.

I definitely think most people make the right decision on balance in their specific situation - I don't judge people who leave, I envy them their decisiveness! I think partly I know as well I do have some personal failings that DP balances out... he's more organised than me, better with budgeting and discipline etc, so I feel I wouldn't necessarily be a 'better' parent if I was on my own - happier yes, but there might be a lot more chaos! I just like to push back against the idea that goes around that if you are unhappy in your relationship, leaving will by default be better for the children. It's a balance and a calculation of the lesser of two evils that is not always straightforward!

Not helpful- but stopped reading at self indulgent people who believes happy mum automatically equals happy kids
You sound tone deaf and clearly have no idea what that statement means

What I meant is don't rely on him not leaving you.

Just make sure your ducks are in a row so to speak so you're not left high and dry if it does happen.

No, you're right, that's not helpful.

I wouldn't be left high and dry. I work, we have shared assets, I'd be OK. Be a thinner life for the kids but it would be a case of reducing extras rather than going without essentials.

I think you’re underestimating the impact growing up in that environment will have on your DC. You and your DP are their model of how relationships work. They’ll grow up seeing that as normal.

My friend was in a similar position. Her DH was a workaholic who neglected his family and was frequently very bad tempered even when they were together. She took the decision to stay but build her own life. She booked events to attend, courses, her own social life and booked holidays that she would go on even if he bailed at the last minute.

It’s worked well for her and they are actually now ( in their 50s) more connected than they were previously. Obviously if she’d been actively seeking another partner it would have been different.

Could you see yourself doing something similar if leaving is too much at the moment?

I have the same and I am leaving. I don’t regret it. We are already happier living together as just friends and as a consequence the kids are happier. I hope that continues when the house is sold and we actually go our separate ways.

He’s actually started taking them out and engaging with them without my input. Didn’t really bother before. I am hopeful.

OK but then what would you suggest? I'm well aware this is suboptimal for them, but us being separated would bring its own downsides and risks that would also impact them... Parental separation, even in cases of domestic abuse where surely it is the best thing overall for the child, is a recognised ACE (adverse childhood experience) which is associated with a range of poor outcomes including depression etc. I'm not saying it isn't having an impact on them, but so would separation and the consequent exposures they would have and be at risk of. Being without me 50% of the time would also have an impact on them. Not having a single place to call home and constantly going back and forth between two smaller, less well-resourced homes would have an impact on them. Having to live with a stepmother and step/half siblings would have an impact on them.

I am aware the best thing to have done would have been to have children with someone I was more compatible with. And I feel a lot of guilt about that. But having not done that, it is not such a simple thing to decide which if the bad options is the least bad for my children.

Having said that, whenever I am overcome with regret for the choices I have made that have left me in this relationship, I remember that if I had done differently, my wonderful children, who are perfect just the way they are, would not exist. And I can't regret that they do, not for a single second. His best qualities are in them too and are part of what make them who they are. He is in many respects a good, involved, loving father. I just wish he was happier, as we have so much in our life to be grateful for and happy about.

It seems reasonable for you to 'detach' for a while - and might result in a difference in behaviour from him, when you don't do the usual leg work to smooth things over? I'd be tempted to treat it as a bit of an experiment to see how long it take for him to make the first move to improve things in the absence of you stepping in like you usually do.

Would you consider some kind of couples therapy? It sounds like you've already done what you can to try to get him to alter his behaviour - maybe some outside input could help... If he thinks it's that or separate, he might be willing to give it a go...

I agree OP, it's right to question the shibboleth that leaving will by default be better for the children. It's a balance and a calculation of the lesser of two evils that is not always straightforward!

I also find it hard to imagine leaving my children to deal with their dad on their own, if I had a grumpy partner like that.

I also don't see why anyone who stays is "modelling a relationship" in a bad way, you can surely be just as clear about the Dad's shortcomings living at home as you are if you live somewhere else?

Is there no middle ground ? The argument seems to me you have to choose between two sides. One could be: "This guy is intolerable! But you have to live with him sometimes because he's your dad and he loves you, though he and I don't get on, good luck with that" and the other is "We all love each other and anything you notice about your dad's poor behaviour is just something we'll brush under the carpet, hey, when you grow up you'll probably be married to someone just like him". Both are terrible!

How about acknowledging when the dad behaves poorly, not going out of your way to solve his problems, building your own life, acknowledging to the kids they are loved... all the subtleties of staying?

Different situation but yes, I can see myself living that way. The stumbling point is sex. One of the things he gets depressed about is not having 'enough' sex (he has a very high drive, I used to but it has diminished over time, partly due to children and partly due to emotional disconnect) and one of the ways I put effort into our relationship is to make sure there is regular sex even when I don't really feel like it. But the way I am feeling now, this total emotional withdrawal, I can't imagine nerving myself up to it, as I don't even have the will to make him happy that motivates me most of the time. And he will definitely not be content with a sexless partnership. In terms of everything else, separate activities and interests etc, I honestly don't think he'd care.

ah then yes it may be hard to preserve a status quo. you shouldn't have sex with someone when you don't want to - that shit is too corrosive.

Jeeze.

It just gets worse

Pressuring and emotionally blackmailing you into sex you don't want is absolutely treating you like shit.

He can't be arsed to do anything about his awful moods, because why should he! Yet he's some how convinced you you should be having sex you don't want to keep him happy?

Fuck that

This is kind of what I hope for. What IS unhealthy for them is seeing me scurry around trying to placate him when he's in a mood, or worse trying to manage their (perfectly normal) kid behaviour so as to avoid stressing him out more. And I do do that, which I am ashamed about. And actually it causes more issues because then I am angry with him that EVEN AFTER ALL THAT he's still not happy. Would be better to just blank his nonsense and me and the kids get on with our normal happy lives. But that also doesn't model a healthy relationship for them.

Trouble is I really feel that ship (modelling a healthy relationship) has sailed. He isn't (I don't think) capable of a healthy relationship because he is never bloody satisfied with anything. I will NEVER have a relationship again if this one fails, because more and more I see of men I just think too many of them are selfish immature tossers with limited emotional intelligence and they are simply not worth the bother. Don't really know what I can model at this point for the best without damaging their interests.

It's a bit more complicated than that. He doesn't 'pressure me' at all. But he went through a really bloody miserable phase, I racked my brains trying to work out what could be making him so unhappy, had a really difficult conversation where I basically had to drag it out of him and it turned out that this was the problem, but he didn't want to talk about it because he was well aware how it would come across and he actually isn't a chauvinist pig. He knows he's not 'entitled' to sex, so would never ask or expect, but he's miserable when he doesn't get it as much as he'd want it.

But obviously once I knew this was an issue I couldn't un-know it, so with my people-pleaser, problem-solver, "if-he-was-just-happy-everything-would-be-OK" head on, I made it my business to increase the frequency in the hope this would improve things. But that relies on me actually caring how he feels, which at this point I think I've just run out of the energy to do any more.

I think it's worth noting at this point, my insecure people-please-y tendencies arise in no small part (in my opinion) from the horrible insecurity of my broken home childhood and feeling like everything is contingent and people's negative feelings are potential threats to my wellbeing that have to be noticed and managed. So breaking up is not the panacea for my kids' future relationships some people seem to imagine.

There isn’t a magic solution. Whatever you do or don’t do will have an impact on your DC. I think that if you have decided to stay, you need to decide how you deal with his behaviour in front of the DC. If you can show them that it’s unacceptable for their father to speak to you (or them) like that and set clear boundaries that’s a start.

Children don’t see things the way adults do and can take on responsibility for things that are outside of their control. They need to know that it’s not their fault if he gets mad at you or them and it’s also not their job to keep him from getting angry or upset.

None of which will change if we break up, it just means they'll be exposed to it 50% of the time instead of me, and without me being there to lighten the mood/take them away from him when he's being dismal.

That reasoning misses a key element, which is that they'll also be able to enjoy half of their time 100 per cent without this atmosphere. My dad was like you describe and honestly one of the worst things was the unpredictability of it and the constant walking on eggshells to not set him off. It was all the time, we could never really relax. And mum tried to mitigate it, but it really didn't help.

Also, as you say, without sex, he's not going to be happy, it's not exactly improbable that he'll walk away. Forcing yourself to have sex to keep the peace is so damaging mentally for you.

My SIL had decided to stick out a bad marriage for the kids, until they'd finished school and after a few years, her husband cheated and filed for divorce, right before the youngest took his A levels. The youngest has gone completely off the rails and (for long and complicated reasons) completely holds his mother responsible for everything. They went to a psychologist every week for a whole year and their relationship is still tenuous.

I think you are underestimating the damage it will do your dc to have this relationship as the only model they have of how to be in their own relationships as adults.

’I think it's worth noting at this point, my insecure people-please-y tendencies arise in no small part (in my opinion) from the horrible insecurity of my broken home childhood and feeling like everything is contingent and people's negative feelings are potential threats to my wellbeing that have to be noticed and managed. So breaking up is not the panacea for my kids' future relationships some people seem to imagine.’

Equally, staying together is no panacea. It’s not a black and white issue.

Thank you this is really useful advice. If I can't model an ideal relationship with him for them, I can at least show them what self-respect and boundaries look like.

But what can I do about that? breaking up will not provide them with a better model. Only getting into an ideal relationship post breaking up would do that, and I have no intention of living with a man ever again if this relationship ends. All that will mean is their model for a relationship is divorce. Which, if my experience is anything to go by, means they will put up with a lot of shit because they are so desperate for stability they didn't have as kids.

You can't seriously think I am obliged to enter into another relationship (with all the risks to my kids that would create) just for the possibility of modelling a better relationship to them?

Which is EXACTLY my point. it isn't. I'm trying to work out the least bad course of action from an array of slightly shit options.

I think you're giving your oh too much credit

He knows exactly what he is doing with the moods.

It absolutely is a form of control and coercion

And by pandering to it your teaching your kids it's OK to behave that way