To think it is possible to separate the artist from the human being.

[SleepDreamThinkHuge]

Take R Kelly and Chris Brown. Both have done very bad crimes as human beings for different reasons. I believe we should be able to separate the artist from the human being. There is no denying that both these guys had talent. A lot of people on here know their songs/heard them before e.g. I believe I can Fly, Worlds Greatest, Forever, Freaky Friday etc..

It seems though if someone says comments like R Kelly and Chris Brown made good songs/had talent you get ridiculed. "How dare you say that they are bad people so their songs can never be good"

Just because a person did terrible things can we not separate their talent from how they are as human beings. I mean recently you probably heard on the news of some Roald Dahl books being changed even though he was anti semitic no one can deny his books were good they sold more than 250 million copies worldwide. And we all know them e.g. Matilda, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

Sorry, meant to quote the above..

I think you can but while they are alive, you may want to distance yourself entirely if only because you don’t want them to profit.
Maybe a bit off topic but I remember my dad being appalled by the nastiness of ‘Charlie and the Chocolate Factory’ in the 1970s. We tried to assure him that Charlie’s rivals don’t actually die, but he couldn’t believe that and never got that far. Changing a few words is ridiculous

I don't think RD went out of his way to promote his views though. Someone asked in an interview and he answered as far as I know. Quite frankly, saying that this is worse that what R Kelly and Chris Brown have done is ridiculous IMO.

I say it's separating the art from the human being.

Even the artist only had a hand in the creation.

I have no idea what really went on with Michael Jackson for instance, none of us do, but if he were a bonafide paedophile I'd still love his music. I can't train my ears to not enjoy that sound so what would be the point in trying?

And why deprive myself of wonderful music?

If you can't listen because of how you feel though that's different.

But no, someone's actions have never ever put me off the art they had a hand in creating. I can even enjoy Sam Smith's music.

R Kelly is not just a singer but writer and music producer; he is to R&B what Dr Dre is too rap.
There's no denying his talent so even people who don't think they enjoy his songs (the ones he sings himself) I can guarantee they'll like at least one that he's behind but someone else sings.
I like most his stuff can't lie, he has serious talent.

Chris Brown I can take or leave.

Have the likes of David Bowie and Iggy Pop been mentioned yet?

And I'm sick to death of apologists for abusers.

Stop minimising male violence against women. Disgusting.

Efforts to "cancel" Harry Potter have been unsuccessful because when it comes to it... the Wizarding World is more famous than its creator, whatever side of that debate you are on.

there's a difference between Gary Glitter, Roald Dahl and JKR though. The first? convicted, clearly guilty, of child abuse. Roald Dahl had some extremely damaging views, but let's not be coy here, he was a damaged person and grew up at a time when lots of people held those views too. His work reflects that and the outcry about sanitising his work is a bit meh. Plenty of parents, myself included either stumbled over some of the sentences in his stories, or edited them as we went along (i did the editing when reading the stories). JKR? Has broken no laws, and people claiming her heinous crimes are still being asked to show what they are and not providing them. Daft example.

Wagner is one that causes me difficulties. It is hard to separate the nazi from the work, especially when i saw Die Walküre (in Germany) with very-nearly-nazi-uniforms to drive home the point of what he was actually saying. So in that case: yes the music is absolutely fantastic, but staging it like that can make the point very well that his thoughts and works are closely tied but we can rise above it if we understand the connection.

Really shocked about Marion Zimmer Bradley. It is difficult to read any of her books now, and i used to absolutely love them.

It's interesting to think about where your lines are.

I won't use the Gill typefaces, yet generally take the view if the person is dead they can't profit so it's less of a problem to read/watch/listen to their work.

The same with Michael Jackson - I was never a fan, but like some of his songs, I wouldn't turn them off if they came on a shuffle, but wouldn't actively choose to listen to them.

On the other hand, there's a living composer who has had allegations made against him, would I not buy a videogame he'd composed the music for? I don't know, there are so many other people involved in the creation of a game (or a film). He's done some great soundtracks, I own one, but haven't listened to it for ages, though he gets no benefit from me listening to something I already own.

There was a band I was a huge fan of as a teenager, there were definitely bad things happening with groupies, but there is an allegation of worse. This is generally dismissed in the fan community, but I've read the allegation and to me, it has the ring of truth, though the accused is no longer here to give their side. I have very mixed feelings about the music and continuing to listen to it.

As others have said its a tricky one

We all probably have the work of Eric Gill near us right now - he created the Gill Sans font which is an integral part of Word and Windows, Apple etc. Whilst we can move away from explicitly using it other fonts have been developed on the back of his work.

And where do you stop? There are various pop and rock stars who have had dubious liaisons in the past - when as an early 20s musicians with a hit girls are throwing themselves at you I imagine its hard to stop and ask them how old they are!

And there have been numerous dirty old men - Bill Wyman married his 18 year old bride after a four year relationship according to some accounts. And John Peel of course married his 15 year old bride when he was aged 25. Different times...

As for performances being tainted - I still look back with fondness on the two or three times I saw Rolf Harris perform at Glastonbury over the years: a skilled musician and performer he was able to get the crowd of 30,000+ singing along and having a good time. Does knowing what we know now lessen the memory?

To an extent. I think it matters what they’ve done/said, and I think it’s a personal choice.
I feel better if the artist is dead, and can’t benefit from any £££.

With older examples, the person or the work is reflecting attitudes that were prevalent in the time - racism in old Disney movies and things Walt Disney himself said for racism, sexism, outdated views.
It’s hard to defend. I still let my kids watch those Disney movies.

R Kelly & Chris Brown are alive, have done things that are deplorable (and illegal) in the time they live in, and would be personally benefiting if we still continued to buy their music.

I think that you are asking for a level of maturity that a lot of people don't seem to possess. Terrible people can produce wonderful art but they are all eventually separated by death. Also, when you gaze on tne psonting, read the book or listen to the song you have no contact with its creator; only the creation.

Dahl's comments were about Jews as a whole - "there is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity,” and that “even a stinker like Hitler didn’t just pick on them for no reason.”

There's no such thing as justifiable anti-semitism, which is exactly what you are trying to do here.

Just stop it.

YES

The casual antisemitisim in this thread is mind blowing, not to mention disgusting

There will be no art left anywhere if we start judging the morals of its creators.

Well no you cannot really. Many artists can be quite awful people.
You cannot airbrush things away as if it wasn't there. And awful people can produce work which is incredible.

As can people who are not though.

"To an extent. I think it matters what they’ve done/said, and I think it’s a personal choice.
I feel better if the artist is dead, and can’t benefit from any £££."

But this issue has arisen because the Roald Dahl estate and Puffin and Netflix and others are trying to make more money from the Roald Dahl books by repackaging them in a way that is acceptable to today to continue making money.

As Philip Pullman (I think) said on the radio the other day let them (the Dahl books) go out of print there are currently millions of copies of the Dahl books in libraries, schools and homes across the world so they wont disappear. The publishers, film makers and others should be investing in new authors rather than trying to make as much money from old works.

There's no such thing as justifiable anti-semitism, which is exactly what you are trying to do here.

yepp

The creation is a complex product of the mind of the creator. When you digest the product, whatever it is, you are having an intimate conversation of sorts with the creator.

Two Little Boys has been mentioned for example... a song that predates RH by quite a long way, but instantly associated with him.

I didn't know this until I googled earlier today. I actually really like the song Two Little Boys but felt like I shouldn't because I assumed Rolf Harris wrote it. I am now going to try to find a version of it by someone else that I can listen to.

Agree. Further, the artists themselves often see their art as a piece of themselves. An eternal legacy. That they live on through their art. Those of us who gaze upon Picasso’s work (terrible misogynist, incredibly cruel to the women in his life at time) keep his legacy alive. Sure the man is dead and gone, but there will have been more than one dead artist who knew and felt, while they were alive and committing atrocious sins, that their legacy would continue. What does that say to living artists? Isn’t it better to let these people slide into obscurity? Not allow living artists believe that the better their art, the more excuses can be made for them? This doesn’t apply to just artists btw. It’s about the ego, there are massive ones in all walks of life.