To think it is possible to separate the artist from the human being.

[SleepDreamThinkHuge]

Take R Kelly and Chris Brown. Both have done very bad crimes as human beings for different reasons. I believe we should be able to separate the artist from the human being. There is no denying that both these guys had talent. A lot of people on here know their songs/heard them before e.g. I believe I can Fly, Worlds Greatest, Forever, Freaky Friday etc..

It seems though if someone says comments like R Kelly and Chris Brown made good songs/had talent you get ridiculed. "How dare you say that they are bad people so their songs can never be good"

Just because a person did terrible things can we not separate their talent from how they are as human beings. I mean recently you probably heard on the news of some Roald Dahl books being changed even though he was anti semitic no one can deny his books were good they sold more than 250 million copies worldwide. And we all know them e.g. Matilda, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

I’m a contradiction with this. I still listen to and enjoy Michael Jackson’s music, despite the fact I think he probably was a wrong ‘un. I think I probably would feel differently if he was convicted. He was so iconic, though. He’s on a different level to a lot of the other artists who have turned out to be abusers. Hard to shake his music completely from my psyche.

R Kelly is totally spoilt for me, though. I feel sick when I hear his music. I think it’s the fact he made SO much lovey dovey, sexy R&B…then turned out to be the most grim abuser of women. Urgh.

I never liked Chris Brown’s music anyway, and always thought he was a prick.

Also @SconesNotScowns can you actually name any “Islamic countries” Israel has “invaded”? Maybe have a look at a map of the Middle East eh and see if you can actually work out where Israel even is. Cause apparently their “invasions” didn’t go that well.

It's a not a black and white issue i suppose. People are willing to overlook for various reasons. Differing opinions on the seriousness of the issues. Their love of the product, their admiration for the artist, their disbelief/excuses for in any "issues" etc.
I just can't quite listen comfortably to MJ any more.
I struggle to listen to Bowie though he is absolutely idolised 🤢 I'm at a loss

@NashvilleQueen who was the “horrible creep who was in Dr Who”?

I think Chris Brown's music was great and think he's an awful human being, so yes, you can seperate the two in that sense.

But I can't listen to it now without thinking about how awful he is, so in that sense you (or I, at least) can't. Same goes for Lostprophets, a band I have seen a ridiculous number of times and who I followed around on tour as a teenager. Their music was very important to me and - all context removed - is great. But I can't listen to it now without feeling sick.

I think that's what people are usually referring to: that once someone has done something awful, their previous work becomes tainted by that awfulness, even if the work itself is widely considered good.

I was just thinking about this earlier as I was thinking of music I used to listen to and Lostprophets was a huge favourite of mine. Seeing them live had been one of the most amazing gigs I had been to around that time as well.

And it all makes me sick now. I miss how their songs made me feel at the time but there's no way I could listen to them now after what Watkins did.

I totally believe the accusations against Michael Jackson but I can listen to his songs and still think he was one of the best in history off performing arts.

Picasso was a despicable man… and an amazing artist.

At the end of the day, they’re to me total strangers. I don’t attribute them any particular characteristics just because they’re famous

This is a really interesting question, and one i was discussing recently.
Aside from the examples discussed here, do you feel the need to know about the artist for any work you come into contact with? For example if you read a book by a new or unfamiliar author do you look them up before reading, or if you go to an exhibition of a new artist do you research them before hand?
Personally I do like to appreciate the art on its own merit.

And I don't think we should hold people from the past to our standards. What was acceptable in the past may not be now, and what is acceptable now could be horrifically offensive in 100 years. It's a good opportunity to learn and grow.

Having said that- some people have committed crimes or acts so unforgivable I do not think they should get that pass. Saville, R-Kelly, Watkins, Gary Glitter for example.

I differentiate between current artists and older ones - I don't judge people on attitudes that prevailed decades or centuries ago. Everyone is a product of their time. Besides which, nobody is perfect - we're all shades of grey (although some are greyer than others, admittedly). Besides which, dead artists do not benefit from my money.

For living artists, it depends greatly on the extent to which they are promoting in their works values I find abhorrent. But then I almost certainly wouldn't be attracted to their works anyway. But ultimately it's an emotional choice rather than a rational one. For each of us, different things cross different lines at different points. I don't think there's a simple scientific formula.

Sure, you can separate artist from craft. But I'm not sure how comfortable I am with R. Kelly, the raging paedophile and sex abuser, profiting from it. He should be forced to donate all his profits to charities which support his victims. Or indeed to them directly.

I'm not sure why Chris Brown gets such a hard time when plenty of other men seem to get away with all sorts. Maybe it's because he's black.

Yes to Carravagio. But I can have a perfectly happy life without Chris Brown and R Kelly. I think the passage of time helps, obviously, and whether you care about their art.

Googling reveals a number of high profile authors who are/were criminals, including murderers...

@PurpleParrotfish Noel Clarke

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Lostprophets is the one I always go back to. After I learned of Ian Watkins' crimes (sex offences against children) and how callous he was about it in court, I never wanted to hear his voice again and haven't listened to those albums, even though they were some of my absolute favourites that I'd have on repeat.

I've not had that strong a reaction to any other artist ever. I wouldn't want to listen to Blurred Lines but that's because the song itself is creepy as well.

It might depend on the level of contribution they made to arts and culture. For example, does it matter if in 100 years from now nobody has heard about Ian Watkins or has ever listened to his music? Not quite the same with Michael Jackson, for example, who was hugely influential in his career.

Most of them yes I can separate it.
Lost prophets.. used to love them. Now all I can picture is that cunt trying to rape a baby. I hope he gets raped daily.

Caravaggio was not quite a murderer in the modern sense, to be fair. He killed a notorious pimp and gangster in a brawl ( possibly as a side effect from c……strating him. He was a very erratic and violent character, if he was related to someone on MN , people would say he had a personality disorder!

I agree with @MysteriesOfTheOrganism that it is dangerous to judge people in the past by our current standards. There are some crimes, however, which have been pretty universally condemned for millennia : especially crimes against children. I do find that they taint my attitude towards the artist .

Maybe the casual antisemitism displayed in this thread so far reinforces my view that it took too long for people to stand up and call out Kanye for his antisemitism. Jews don't count apparently.

The first time I had to think about this was with Ryan Adams. I think it's because his work meant so much to me. Then after a while no charges were brought...and I decided to go with no streaming, just listening to what I already own.

If he was charged, convicted etc I think I'd not be able to listen again.

OP, please don't make connections with R Kelly and Chris Brown. I'm not even sure why you are mentioning Chris Brown quite frankly. He was a 17yr old and his "crimes" 🙄are in no way comparable to those of R Kelly.

Why haven't you brought up Sean Penn, Roman Polanski, Christian Bale, Charlie Sheen, Josh Brolin, Nicholas Cage....?

Chris Brown was 20 I thought? Not that it matters to me. And OP wasn't comparing them. Nor can you mention every problematic person in one post.

And CB is not a colorist. People just always want to find something to say about him and don't like the fact that he seems to have a preference over most recent years of dating blasian women (biracial black and asian/East asian). He did date Rihanna, who is black of course but that is always overlooked because apparently Rihanna isn't black enough?! American attitudes to shades of blackness is absolutely ridiculous and simply segregates black people further...

@EmmaEmerald I'm also very conflicted about Ryan Adams. His music has helped me through the most difficult, and also happiest times in my life. My adult life has been soundtracked by his music for over twenty years and nothing can take those moments away.
DP has bought us tickets for his upcoming tour and I really don't know how I'll react to seeing him live this time, I just don't have the same excitement any more.

No he was 17 when the incident happened. To be honest I'm sick to death of it being brought up so many years later, the man is now 33! It's lazy to bring him up...particularly when there are so many other more deserving arseholes who remain booked and busy in Hollywood...

That's all I'm saying.

Chris Brown didn’t just beat up Rihanna though ffs!! He’s attacked multiple partners since then including stalking and a recent ex requiring a restraining order against him!

why are people minimising it to him being just 17?!

He’s still out here as a grown ass man harassing and physically attacking women with current active restraining orders!

The guy is dangerous!

Yes...I'm not letting go of the soundtrack of my life but I didn't want to listen to the new stuff.

that said, I've just looked it up and the FBI couldn't find any reason to bring charges, so it was all dropped in January 2021 (I was in a bad state then so I didn't know). I might actually listen to some new stuff then.

🎤 just so you know, you will always be the hardest thing I will let go🎤

I want to think he didn't do anything, I realise that. I'm sure he's superb in concert.