To think she was insinuating that we are racist?

[Summertimecoming]

AIBU? What would you think if your manager said this to you? I'll try and explain as best as I can but I'm a bit worried about outing myself on here.

I work in a small open plan office which has 3 different teams, plus our manager. There is 4 of us on my team and our role involves looking at lots of C.V's every day, from people of all walks of life. Whenever we speak about anything, our manager can hear us (and you can bet she's listening!) as she doesn't sit too far away from our desks. We always discuss applications/CV's with each other, not in a nasty or offensive way but sometimes if we're not sure about progressing with a certain application or in a "this person has applied for a cleaning role but has only ever worked as a maintenance assistant, how strange!" kind of way. This doesn't mean that we automatically reject their application btw, but obviously we wonder why they want a change or if they've just applied accidentally.

We do speak to a lot of people who are rude to us, have sworn on the phone etc but we always stay professional whilst speaking to them. Yes, we might have said "they were really rude" after the call has ended but that's in a private office and the applicants obviously can't hear us. We get a lot of people applying for roles who don't bother to read the job description as well and then only realise that it's not suitable when we phone them. For example, a non driver has applied for a position that requires a drivers licence or they've applied for a position at a location which is miles away from where they live and they have no idea where it is, and didn't bother to Google it before applying. It is frustrating and sometimes we just need a bit of a moan, but we never swear, insult them etc. We all know that's unacceptable.

Anyway, to cut a long story short we had our weekly recruitment meeting this morning and our manager told us that we will be having some training next week as "we need to be careful of what we're saying whilst on the phone to applicants and in the office". She said otherwise it can be taken too far and become inappropriate. She also mentioned that we shouldn't discuss where people are from. The only time we've done this is when we've received an overseas application (and we get these a lot). For example, someone from India has applied for a job in Manchester. It's always the same people as well and they obviously don't think we'll notice that their from a different country and have a different phone number or email address. Again we've never insulted them. or made inappropriate comments, just said how strange it is that it keeps on happening.

She didn't explain what she meant by her comments and we didn't have the guts to ask her as I think we were all just taken aback. Surely she should have used examples to back up what she was saying though?! We came out of the meeting feeling really deflated, upset and like we're all basically shit at our jobs. The one comment that stuck out (and we're all in agreement about this) is when she said about us discussing where people are from. We feel that she was insinuating that we are racist as the only time we've mentioned anything is when it's been an overseas application, and this is only because we can't employ anyone who doesn't reside in the UK.

We all felt on edge for the rest of the day and that we couldn't even talk to each other or ask for advice about an application as we knew she was listening. She's not the best manager anyway and has form for making comments but not really explaining herself, but this has knocked us.

What do you think?

She has probably had a memo from the higher powers about discrimination and equality and this was her clumsy attempt at passing good practice on. I wouldn’t worry about it. If you are treating applicants fairly and respectfully you are doing ok.

As not to drip feed, we work in the HR department and she is the HR manager. Sorry, forgot to add that in!

Agree with thism the training is likely fairly common diversity training which is valuable - I just think the delivery of the message was a little clumsy as she probably tried to tie it to the role the OP actually does rather than talk in general positive terms about the training.

I agree with the pps, you are doing the job you are paid to do. They are doing the job they are paid to do- tick the right boxes

You didn't exactly cut a long story short, but I don't think you were being accused of being racist. Were you really so taken aback that you couldn't ask? All of you?

Like others have said it’s probably related to some training and new policies.

I don’t think she is suggesting you’re racist but you do have to be very careful these days though, maybe she’s concerned someone else could catch the wrong end of a comment and report it or a customer could overhear something in the back ground on a phone call. I’m sure you’re very careful but she’s right to be concerned, a very innocent comment could result in quite a big backlash (especially with you being the HR department)

I would refrain from discussing anything about where applicants are from or if you need to say something then do so professionally ‘unfortunately they were too far out of area to be considered for the role’

Yes we were @Kangarude. She has an answer for everything, so there really is no point in trying to challenge her. I think it's unfair to make comments like that as a matter of fact but not give people a chance to defend themselves. I don't think we would have minded as much, if it had been said during the HR meeting on Monday when everyone was there, but it was just our team that she'd said this to, and other teams do speak to people on the phone as well (not necessarily applicants but other organisations, staff etc).

She is generally very negative anyway and the office does have a high staff turn over. I guess we just feel it's another blow. Employee morale is very low there.

I don't think she's accusing you of anything OP. It's normal IMO to have to attend this kind of training every now and then.

Could she be worried about what you’re saying about applicants being misconstrued if someone else is on a call their customer/client/whatever hears you?

Say you have an application from a person in the USA for a job and you say to your colleges:

“Urgh, this application is from someone living in America. Didn’t they read the job advert? You have to live in the UK to apply. It’s the third American applicant this week, so annoying!”.

But all the person on the phone picks up is “Urgh… third American applicant this week…so annoying!”.

And they fill the blanks to think you have a problem with American candidates in general.

Everyone seems a bit paranoid at the moment and do not dare ask this question. It may have to do with the recent debacle with Lady Hussey and how she was portrayed by some MSM and social media

It's necessary in order to do your jobs though, so it's likely it will be covered sensibly in the training

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/02/sacking-lady-susan-hussey-ritual-humiliation-masquerading-social/

What do you think?

I think you're adults and you should've asked the very simple question, "Oh, why's that?"

I doubt it had anything to do with a member of the Royal household making a racist comment months ago. You just wanted an excuse to post that article.

Nice sneaky dog whistle there! 👌🏽 🙄

I think you are taking personally while it is likely to simply be an organisation-wide policy and part of a general equality and diversity drive.

Nothing to do with you specifically.

I think it would be obvious to someone who works in HR...

I feel like you're portraying your team's behaviour as whiter than white here.

You really NEVER say anything more than "how unusual?" in respectful tones? Does this HR office operate out of a Victorian tea parlour?

In my experience, this means that at the very least you're unaware of how badly some of the things you say would come across if partially heard.

She's not told you that you're shit at your jobs, she's told you how to do better at a particular part of them. Stop focusing on defending yourself and listen to her.

You work in an open plan office, where you discuss individuals' personal details. Of course you need to be discreet and impartial.

Maybe there have probably been some inappropriate comments but rather than pull up individuals, your manager had opted for a blanket reminder.

I don't think she's accusing you of being racist otherwise the procedure would have been different. I think it's easy to get carried away in office conversations and for the listener or observer they can hear things a person may have mindlessly said. I think her action of training the team is correct and non confrontational. I would make more effort to be mindful of what I say and be more professional about the applicants even if they are rude or frustrating, you're in a professional capacity and have a higher threshold of behaviour while on company hours, even if it's just banter between your team and by the way, you might find it's another employee hearing you who raised this with her not necessarily from the manager.

I think that there's a possibility that the conversation starting to get unprofessional. It can easily happen. It usually takes a new member of staff to give a heads up. I'd question the need to nit pick and comment so much tbh.

Do the training, it can't harm you - if ever i have to do training i ask if there is a certificate to add to my CV or use in appraisals.

During the training, if the manager is there you might be able to ask for concrete examples. Phrase it so that you really really want to make sure you're not showing unconscious bias or are saying things in a way that you've never really thought about but that others might perceive differently.

If you and your team are sure you are clean on this, it is fine. If not, start thinking about it. But if you aren't doing things that are wrong, or slightly iffy, don't worry about it.

You’re discussing people’s job applications in open office.

Job applications are personal data and there are rules (or at least guidelines) about how they should be handled.

I’m surprised you’re allowed to ‘chat amongst yourselves’ regarding external job applications. It sounds a bit laissez faire to me. I wouldn’t want my application discussed in casual office chat.

I don’t think anyone’s accusing you of being racist. I think they’re saying you’re being indiscreet and unprofessional.

OP, I have a feeling if your manager was asked to explain what they heard during those conversations you mentioned, that their story would be different from yours.
I struggle to believe that you and the rest of the team were completely respectful every single time. We’re all guilty of saying things we don’t necessarily mean occasionally. You don’t need to paint yourself as a saint.
Just do the training and be more careful in future.

I don't think your HR manager was insinuating anything. She has arranged training, which will part of your standard refresher training, precisely because she's overheard you in the office chatting & thinks it'd benefit your service and team.

She told you why she thinks this training will be of benefit
we need to be careful of what we're saying whilst on the phone to applicants and in the office". She said otherwise it can be taken too far and become inappropriate. She also mentioned that we shouldn't discuss where people are from.

I'd wait for the training, as that may explain exactly why she said what she said. I wouldn't second guess this.

This sounds like a perfectly sensible interpretation of what the manager may have meant. But you should have spoken up to ask your manager to clarify, ideally without getting defensive.

Without knowing exactly what you are saying it is hard to comment.

I think however she's just asking you to keep it professional. A simple - "not in the UK" is all that's needed if that's a criteria, if you even need to discuss it. Not sure why it needs discussing though if you can just reject it yourself.

She also mentioned that we shouldn't discuss where people are from.

"I have to reject the application as the person is from India" sounds racist. "I have to reject the application because the contact details are from outside the UK" is less likely to be misconstrued by someone overhearing.

Though I'm surprised you do just blanket reject applications if the person is resident outside the UK. What if they're overseas short term but have the right to work in the UK?