Cultural Appropriation?

[Burgoo]

I've just stumbled across a few articles that make reference to mindfulness/medication and yoga.

Both articles argue that the Westernisation of both activities is "cultural appropriation" and that white folk in the West should think about how they are using these activities in every-day life. The key themes seem to be:

1. We need to acknowledge the concepts and where they originated
2. We must bring attention to the oppression that has been meted out onto minorities and other cultures if we are to use "their" concepts/activities
3. We should never benefit financially from activities that are stolen from other cultures (e.g. white-middle-class women shouldn't teach yoga if they are getting money from it because it is stolen from another culture)
4. We shouldn't just take the bits that are "relevant" to our culture - for example, using yoga for physical exercise and ignore the spiritual aspects of yoga.

So... what are people's thoughts on this?

TABU (they are being unreasonable, people who argue this)
TANBU (they aren't being unreasonable, we need to stop taking aspects of other people's cultures and respect all aspects of them)

I say they because I am undecided and wonder if I am missing something!

You've clearly missed the point.

Well, what is the point then? The threads about CA. Are people performing the physical movements of yoga and nothing more guilty of CA or not?

Ditto for Africa I imagine. Or are they all the same?

Exactly. I'm not aware of the origins of most things including British things.

Lol. Joseph Pilate used loads of yoga moves and techniques to come up with Pilates and made loads of money! Exactly what people are moaning about

Ditto for Africa I imagine?

Exactly

FFS .. the world has gone mad!

There are westerners practicing yoga, there is a McDonald's or two in Japan, there is a Wendy's near me in the UK, I enjoy Christmas and adopt the tradition even though I'm not religious, I have a french car, I eat vegetables from new Zealand, I ate an Indian curry in Korea, I wore a head scarf to keep my head cool on a rare hot in Wales ... the list of things we take, adopt, use, copy, borrow or have even just developed in tandem, from other places, cultures and countries is endless.

People should just do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. And there is probably very few things anyone does in their day that hasn't come from somewhere/something else/some other county etc.. I mean - who developed showering? Brushing teeth? Where are your clothes made? Who started the breakfast tradition? Where did the idea of paid employment come from? Where did schooling first come from? Who developed the first cars and had the idea to develop the petrol engine? Etc...

The Olmec, of ancient Mesoamerica, were the first to convert the cocoa plant into chocolate, which they used for medicinal and ritual purposes, over 4,000 years ago! Given this, do we just all stop eating chocolate products, because in line with this belief of inappropriate appropriation, billions of us are doing it, and doing it for the pleasure of eating chocolate and not because of the original religious rituals, involving chocolate, that the Olmec used it for?

Given this line of thinking, therefore everything has, to a lesser or greater degree, been appropriated - directly or indirectly. Traditions, culture, religion, language- they have all evolved from other things. This how societies ultimately develop, how they evolve, how they continue to flourish. But it’s all come from some else. But that’s not a bad thing, and it highlights the connections that exist between all of us.

Yoga is utterly brilliant. Why should only Hindus be able to practice it? Arguably they appropriated it from the older Vedic religion. How dull a world if we can't learn something from other cultures.

So what if people don't practise the religious aspects or know about all of it? Religion is of no importance to growing numbers of people. Plus practising the moves opens up the possibility of this knowledge and way of life. I started doing fitness yoga - zero spirituality - ten years ago, I know a lot more about yoga now, but I don't know everything.

Just adding to the Namaste religious meaning or just plain greeting debate - the word ‘goodbye’ is derived from a Christian/Catholic abbreviation for the phrase ‘God Be With Ye’ so, y’know, maybe things evolve (although I’m not informed enough to comment on the word Namaste itself).

You mean like Christmas and Easter?

Poor Oppressed Irish people. If not for all of this oppression and Paddy jokes in the past, by now they would have had their prosperous EU member country …

"Namaste is used as a respectful form of greeting, acknowledging and welcoming a relative, guest or stranger. In some contexts, namaste is used by one person to express gratitude for assistance offered or given, and to thank the other person for his or her generous kindness"

So there you go. Using it in the context of a yoga class does not necessarily signify a religious or spiritual element.

I do see both sides... From one angle it's like, our food and our practices are low class and dirty until a white blonde women or trendy white guy is marketing it.

This has actually happened a lot. Cooks from my country have expressed frustration that there is no global market for their cookbooks (in English - we speak English), but when a white chef releases a cookbook about our cultural food, it's "revolutionary" (as if they discovered or invented our food) and incredibly well-received. Again, this has happened many times.

It could definitely just be a question of relatability (ie you relate more to the white person), but I also really think there are some ingrained societal beliefs about what can count as cool and trendy.

Based on my experience dabbling in yoga (haha I'm guilty too), people are way more likely to go for white blonde trendy types of studios and teachers. (Though tbf the kind of customers in that area of London are a special breed of superficial as well!)

If an Indian woman from India with a heavy Indian accent opened her own class and did real yoga without all the trendy bits, I wonder how many people would sign up. Actually I have read about Indian yoga teachers complaining about this, but in the context of America, I don't know about the UK.

The same with eating with hands, using edible food/material based cutlery (that can come across as poor/humble), lots of things... I've seen people from many cultures eg in Africa and South Asia say that they were looked down at for their daily cultural practices, until it suddenly became practised by / trendy among Westerners. Even then the origins are not really acknowledged.

And the same with homosexuality, the concept of a 3rd gender / being non gender binary, etc. These were local practices in the region (down to having widely known ancient classical poetry written about it), even when I was growing up. But they were seen as being against Western (Christian) higher class values – especially those of our former colonisers, Britain in the Victorian era – and were therefore dirty, uncool, low class "native" practices when I was growing up and for generations before that. Genuinely.

Suddenly it's a thing in the West and non-Western cultures are called backwards for having previously stamped out those aspects of their own culture in conformity with values of the global hierarchy.

To be clear, I absolutely believe in equality for all, I'm just giving an example of cultural bias... I can elaborate more on this eg if you quote this but don't want to turn this into a thesis for now. :)

people are way more likely to go for white blonde trendy types of studios and teachers

In my experience most people practice yoga at an inexpensive gym or village hall, or online through Adrienne or similar, not a trendy studio. And in the UK most areas are very majority white, so you'd be unlikely to be able to find a class run by someone of south Asian heritage.

I do get the point about when someone white does something it becomes more legitimate/popular somehow.

I do see both sides... From one angle it's like, our food and our practices are low class and dirty until a white blonde women or trendy white guy is marketing it.

Fundamentally that's just racism though. Pure and simple.

The problem is how (for example) black people's hair/styling has been treated historically. That was/is wrong.

White people wearing corn rows isn't actually particularly relevant to that or more accurately, policing that doesn't right the historical wrong.

From one angle it's like, our food and our practices are low class and dirty until a white blonde women or trendy white guy is marketing it.

This has actually happened a lot. Cooks from my country have expressed frustration that there is no global market for their cookbooks (in English - we speak English), but when a white chef releases a cookbook about our cultural food, it's "revolutionary" (as if they discovered or invented our food) and incredibly well-received. Again, this has happened many times.

It could definitely just be a question of relatability (ie you relate more to the white person), but I also really think there are some ingrained societal beliefs about what can count as cool and trendy.

This was my understanding of appropriation. Denigrating something when its originators do it, but applauding it when someone from a more privileged/less oppressed background does it.

And it's wrong, and unfair. I agree with you.

I do think there could be other dynamics, for example, celebrity chefs who do this kind of thing already have a following/standing, so would this be the same if a completely unknown white person were to release the cookbook, if you know what I mean? I will also most often buy cookbooks/follow recipes by chefs who either live or work in England, simply because I often can't get ingredients if they're writing from another country. That's not about race, language or skin colour (e.g. I don't use American recipes, for the same reason).

I think it's quite hard to pin down exactly why it's happening in each situation, whether it's plain racism or there are other things at play. But I understand the frustration if people feel unable to use their own cultural practices for fear of being ridiculed/criticised, but then have to watch people from other cultures do it and get praise for it.

I don't believe this situation is in any way the same as a white woman buying a hair product marketed to Black women, though, as has been suggested upthread.

Oh yes of course the UK is majority white, but I'm thinking of London which is pretty diverse!

Someone will soon be along to contradict me which is absolutely fair (certain areas genuinely embrace diversity). But personally that's a pattern I observed about the most popular/waitlisted classes, at the studios I went to in a few different areas of London.

Racism isn't only practiced by white people, of course. I doubt some Asian Hindu men would go to a yoga class ran by someone they perceive to be of lower caste. Or by a woman.

@treasurefoil

sorry, I wasn't clear. Why do you consider "namaste" a religious phrase?

(In response to a comment above - look up Britain's role in creating and reinforcing the modern caste system in Britain, in order to rule India in an easier and more brutal way. It's fairly common knowledge and easy to look up.

Now this is absolutely NOT to say that all ills originate from white people. Of course that is not the case and all cultures come up with absolutely awful ideas. Just that as the globally dominant and prestigious culture you actually have more influence than you think or acknowledge (look up Section 377 – most of the countries worldwide currently banning homosexuality are former British colonies hanging on to that Victorian law.))

Historically I think the yoga example is interesting because Britain does seem to have embraced the South Asian culture/demographic a lot more equally than say, America (where East Asians / Asian Americans probably have that equivalency). So maybe the conversation around cultural appropriation of yoga might be more applicable in the US than UK? Not sure, just guessing.

In India, sorry

This has actually happened a lot. Cooks from my country have expressed frustration that there is no global market for their cookbooks (in English - we speak English), but when a white chef releases a cookbook about our cultural food, it's "revolutionary" (as if they discovered or invented our food) and incredibly well-received. Again, this has happened many times.

This is just the realities of marketing. If you have a big enough marketing budget you can sell any old crap as amazing and revolutionary.

What utter codswallop. I love a breton top ...am I culturally appropriating the french... im also fond of a kimono...should the japanese be mortally offended ? ...? what utter nonsense. This world is on one side saying be what you want, man,woman, gay, straight, half and half ...wear a skirt if you're a man, whatever ....but on the other hand, if you want to wear braids or a weave and you're not 'ethnic enough' you're culturally appropriating, bloody hell no wonder we are confused.