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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The word actress?

132 replies

dottypotter · 02/02/2023 12:27

Everyone is an actor these days.
Females are not referred to as actresses any more.
A female is an actress.
Have I missed something?
Anyone else noticed?

OP posts:
Tangerinie · 02/02/2023 13:17

I think they do actually use the word doctoresse in old french...? I'm not 100% sure, but Google seems to say yes.

Acteur and actrice are still used in modern french I think (male actor and female actor). But a doctor is always médecin (un médecin, une médecin) not une médecine for women doctors or anything. I don't know why that is though; some professions are gendered in French while others are not.

Excuse massive derail and I don't think it changes anything (actor is the correct word for both sexes), but it is quite interesting to me and maybe explains where the two words come from

Tangerinie · 02/02/2023 13:18

*did use

I don't think it is still in use

ScrollingLeaves · 02/02/2023 13:19

If you only have the one word for ‘pilot’ most people would assume it is a man.
The name needs to be mentioned to avoid that. Pilotess doesn’t sound right! But there are so few anyway.

In the same way ‘actor’ might make someone listening presume
someone is talking about a man while in this case there are so many women in this profession that that is a shame.

In this profession, which pushes the idea of a young sexy woman relentlessly you aren’t going to mitigate for that much by calling her an ‘actor’ with a serious demeanour. Let her at least get recognition for being a woman who brought her skills to the job.

lennylion · 02/02/2023 13:19

Was an actor/actress for a while. Didn't really give a shit about what term was used but what did fuck me the fuck off was the "as the actress said to the bishop" style jokes. They were always highly misogynistic

MasterBeth · 02/02/2023 13:22

WaitingForSunnyDays · 02/02/2023 12:59

Could someone explain in simple terms why it's seen as offensive in some way? Like a PP said, it's standard in many other languages to have a different masculine/feminine term, and it has therefore never bothered me in English. I can kind of see it for terms where there may an inherent default of male, so in the previous example given of Doctor vs Lady Doctor, but even there "doctor" is used for both male and female correctly.

The American Heritage Dictionary has this usage note:

When used in occupational terms like waitress, stewardess, and sculptress, the feminine suffix -ess is sometimes considered sexist and demeaning because it gratuitously calls attention to gender. With some nouns, like poetess or sculptress, the feminine form may be taken to imply that the task somehow differs when performed by a woman, or that it is by default the realm of men. With others, such as seamstress, the feminine form may be taken to suggest the occupation is characteristically feminine. In some cases, such as sculptor, the term with masculine gender has become effectively neuter, applying naturally to either sex. In other cases, gender-neutral terms like server and flight attendant have been created, finessing the problem of using an originally masculine noun to refer to either sex. A few specialized examples persist in fields in which the sex of the referent is relevant, sometimes for historical reasons, including chiefess in anthropology, goddess in history and literature, and lioness in biology. Other cases, like webmistress, represent arch reclaimings of the -ess suffix, but these are whimsical or ironic exceptions. · Many nouns ending in -or or -er are commonly used of women now and should be considered standard. In our 1997 survey, 95 percent of the Usage Panel approved The gallery is exhibiting work of sculptor Barbara Hepworth, and in our 2016 survey, 88 percent accepted Meryl Streep was one of five actors to receive an Oscar nomination for leading woman this year. It should be noted that 85 percent of the panelists also accepted a similar sentence with actresses, indicating that in some cases, despite the prevalence of gender-neutral terms like actor, the -ess form maintains its acceptability. However, when discussing mixed-sex groups, actors is preferred over actors and actresses: Ninety-three percent of the panelists accepted Meryl Streep was one of four actors presented with honorary doctorates yesterday, together with Robert Duvall, Helen Mirren, and Javier Bardem, whereas only 67 percent accepted a similar sentence with actors and actresses in place of actors.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/02/2023 13:22

’skills to the job’ acting skills from their women’s deep knowledge of life and human nature, their women’s capacity for nuance, their women’s capacity for intensely hard work,

CitronVert22 · 02/02/2023 13:23

Actress makes sense to me because sex actually does matter more in that profession than in most. Then there's the thing that gender neutral often leads people into default male thinking. I bet if you ask 100 people name the first famous actor they can think of that you get more than 50 men named.

felulageller · 02/02/2023 13:23

Imo actress is different from outdated words like headmistress as they are playing female characters so not performing the same job as a male actor.

In almost all other jobs the job is the same regardless of sex.

Alexandernevermind · 02/02/2023 13:24

There is a scene in Nottinghill where the city boys in the restaurant are sniggering about the work actress meaning prostitute in different languages. It's probably this unfair image that they are trying to shake off, just like the bar man (bloke in charge) barmaid (there to flirt with the customer) imagery.
Judge Rinder asked a woman "before him" why she called herself and actor, and she said because women judges are judgesses.
If we had complete equality then terms such as actress would be fine, but we are a long way from that.

ArtVandalay · 02/02/2023 13:24

Have you really not noticed that ‘actress’ is no longer used, like ‘waitress’, ‘air hostess’ etc…

Did it not register that we have fire fighters, police officers, batters in cricket?

Alexandernevermind · 02/02/2023 13:25
  • Word, not work!
FuckabethFuckor · 02/02/2023 13:32

IMO the ongoing use of 'actress' in awards (such as the Oscars) continues to legitimise this otherwise increasingly outdated term.

How you'd change it without creating slightly clunky phrasing I don't know. 'Best Actor (Women)/Best Actor (Men)' or 'Best Acting Performance by a Woman in a Motion Picture/Best Acting Performance by a Man in a Motion Picture'. Neither of them roll off the tongue, exactly, but then inclusivity and equality isn't always neat and tidy is it.

CornflakesOnTheSolesOfHerShoes · 02/02/2023 13:34

The Guardian stopped using actress several years ago, but the Times and Telegraph both still use it - it’s hardly been ditched from day-to-day language.

I hadn’t realised waitress was going the same way - it wouldn’t occur to me not to use that. What are people saying instead? Server, like in America?

Nightlystroll · 02/02/2023 13:35

What's daft about the words landlady or actress or waitress? I've been all three and never felt demeaned or been treated worse by people. And my old headmistress could hold her own with any headmaster and better just about them all.
Who is doing all this demeaning?

ScrollingLeaves · 02/02/2023 13:37

I am fairly sure I’ve very recently heard an actor reclaiming ‘actress’ for herself.

That is a good point someone made that in this case her job is to enact being a girl or woman, as opposed to being a pilot or fire fighter where the role is the same for both sexes.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/02/2023 13:44

Kate Winslet in the Guardian:

“Middle-aged women have long been underestimated, disrespected and disregarded in the film and television community, and now that’s changing,” she says. “Look at the actresses who won at the Emmys. None of us were in our 20s by any means, and that’s cool! I feel way cooler as a fortysomething actress than I ever imagined I would.”

FuckabethFuckor · 02/02/2023 13:44

I suppose it depends on whether you see it as the end role, or the act of acting itself. If you look at acting as a profession, there's nothing sexed or gendered about the skills and actions needed to do it. The role being a woman or a man is separate to the skill needed to actually act, IMO.

And of course some roles can be played by either women or men. Doctor Who being a recent example (also Missy/The Master in the same show).

All the characters in the 1979 Alien film were written to be played by either women or men — at one point Ripley was going to be a man until Sigourney Weaver came along. (And Alien itself is actually a fascinating study in subtle messaging; the creature and the way it attacked/procreated was deliberately designed to make men in the audience feel uncomfortable).

And I've seen a fair few Shakespearean parts sex-swapped. Fiona Shaw in Richard II, Maxine Peake and Cush Jumbo both doing Hamlet, Glenda Jackson playing Lear.

Nightlystroll · 02/02/2023 13:46

Linda Hunt won an Oscar for portraying a man. Does that make her an actor or an actress?

Hadalifeonce · 02/02/2023 13:46

I have definitely heard a woman refer to herself as an actress recently, probably personal preference

hungerganes · 02/02/2023 13:49

@Tangerinie France is quite chauvinistic though so I wouldn't be looking at them for anything equality.

ThreeLittleDots · 02/02/2023 13:54

I hadn’t realised waitress was going the same way - it wouldn’t occur to me not to use that. What are people saying instead? Server, like in America

Yes, server, but more commonly 'waiting staff'

Tangerinie · 02/02/2023 13:54

hungerganes · 02/02/2023 13:49

@Tangerinie France is quite chauvinistic though so I wouldn't be looking at them for anything equality.

Do you think? I wasn't looking to them for "anything equality", but I think that the French words are the origin of the words in English. This might explain why we have (used to have) actors and actresses but never doctors and doctoresses. Not (as I clearly said) that that makes a difference. Actor is the word most people use for either sex these days

CornflakesOnTheSolesOfHerShoes · 02/02/2023 14:05

But waiting staff doesn’t work when talking about an individual though?

Tangerinie · 02/02/2023 14:06

I think it's just waiter for either sex. My contract said "waiter" and I'm all woman baby

LindorDoubleChoc · 02/02/2023 14:12

Yes, it's a good thing imo.

All the female actors I know irl have been calling themselves actors for decades.