Page 7 | To wonder where all the money is going to come from to increase wages?

girlfriend44 · 2023-02-01T15:05:50+00:00

Genuine question. Re people who are striking for more money. Where do they think the extra money is going to come from to increase all their wages and how will this keep inflation down? Can the government really afford to pay everyone more?

Honper · 01/02/2023 18:19

It's going to come from my fucking fanny.

theworldhas · 01/02/2023 18:29

@GrumpyPanda

excellent link. This sums it up nicely:

No wonder we are the only economy heading for a recession. Other governments are managing the fallout of war. We’re seeing that war used as an excuse for an economic war on the people and institutions of this country

theworldhas · 01/02/2023 18:41

This government is about as certain of defeat at the next election in less than two years time as any government can be: Lagging about 25 points in the poll. The majority in the country would be hard pushed to name a single achievement of their ten plus years in office.

What they are trying to do right now, IMO, is make this country as impoverished and ungovernable as possible so that they can try to get back in again before the end of the decade. In the meantime they will decimate public services - so that, when they do get in again, full on privatisation of the NHS will (they hope) be an historically easy sell. Moreover they know that letting poverty spiral and inequality rise will actually be less a problem for them than Labour, as nobody expects Tories to safeguard the lives of the poor.

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 18:51

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 18:12

Do you think we’ll go back to 90s growth when Labour get in or it’ll be closer to the economic reality of today?

People look to the comparative short stints of Labour and I get the impression it’s not the global upswing they see - how many other countries had similar boom before the bust?, plus spending we’re paying for now, but some idea that Labour will do the same just because it’s Starmer.

The 70s just before Thatcher got in aren’t mentioned though.

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When we look at reasons for low growth, yes I think there will be higher growth under a Labour Government.

I think there will be more incentives for companies to reinvest profits rather than providing record breaking dividends for shareholders, for example. I think there will be less slavish devotion to the market and ideological pursuit of austerity even where that market is not functioning. I think there will be more targeted investment in, for example, green energy and infrastructure and skills. I think there will be fewer economically illiterate and ideologically driven insistence that economies are like household budgets.

So yes, I do think a Labour Government will likely create more growth.

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 19:08

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 18:51

When we look at reasons for low growth, yes I think there will be higher growth under a Labour Government.

I think there will be more incentives for companies to reinvest profits rather than providing record breaking dividends for shareholders, for example. I think there will be less slavish devotion to the market and ideological pursuit of austerity even where that market is not functioning. I think there will be more targeted investment in, for example, green energy and infrastructure and skills. I think there will be fewer economically illiterate and ideologically driven insistence that economies are like household budgets.

So yes, I do think a Labour Government will likely create more growth.

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That sounds like faith in something happening

I’m not seeing much so far that suggests Labour are going to do much that is very good.

Have you heard their specific policies so far - which stand out as being good?

It’s always a matter of perspective but any party that starts using ‘tax the rich’ narrative for votes sounds on a losing path- people can go.

It does gain votes but not much more. Blair at least had the sense not to do this. Imo Labour won’t look at the difficult stuff that could make a difference (Brexit) but will throw everything they’ve heard might poll well regardless because 13 years is a very long time to be out and they don’t want to risk another Ed Miliband.

That approach makes me feel less positive, but we’ll see I guess.

PartyHelp · 01/02/2023 19:08

Teachers are not striking for more money, they are asking for better working conditions, respect (as in for their profession to be treated with respect) and for pay comensurate with their expertise/at a deserved rate.

Sorry but this isn't true. They are only looking for more money. The NEU is demanding a fully-funded, above-inflation pay rise, while NASUWT has asked for a 12 per cent rise. The NAHT is seeking a fully-funded pay award at the rate of inflation last September, when it was 10.1 per cent, plus 5 per cent.

Nothing about school funding etc. and of course they are perfectly entitled to strike for more pay, good luck to them if they haven't had proper payrises in years they are entitled to it but I'm really sick of reading the 'well they are just trying to fix the schools BS on MN, all schools are underfunded etc.' as if they are just being altruistic by striking!

People in this country don't know they are born when it comes to schools and the amount of resources they have and the fact you have to pay for basically nothing except for school uniform.

popopop · 01/02/2023 19:16

@PartyHelp have you ever worked in a school?

JassyRadlett · 01/02/2023 19:20

Nothing about school funding etc.

I'm not in the education system but even I know that the 'fully funded' bit of a fully funded pay rise is all about school funding.

A pay rise that's not fully funded means schools have to fund it from existing budgets. Which means cuts to other things.

On top of existing cuts and pay erosion for 2010, where do you think the money will come from for pay rises if it's not cutting non-teaching staff and other things that schools need to pay for?

Winterday1991 · 01/02/2023 19:21

It's a very valid point, such large pay rises for teachers would cost billions. However, there is a severe shortage of teachers for some disciplines, so I don't know what the answer is.

Original poster

girlfriend44 · 01/02/2023 19:22

What happens if they don't get the pay rise also?

OP posts:

LiquoriceAllsort2 · 01/02/2023 19:22

OchreDandelion · 01/02/2023 17:44

In addition to the many elements already covered, one simple way I had it explained to me was to imagine the life cycle of a pound.

It is not like an chocolate bar which, once eaten, is gone.

Money - which is paid to someone who will spend it - circulates.

Let's say, for example:

I am paid well enough to have an extra £100 at the end of the term, so I book my daughter into ballet lessons.
So the ballet school gets the £100 and that of other better paid people
The combined ballet fees mean the ballet teacher has an extra £100 at the end of the term, so she might go out to dinner.
More people going out to dinner means the restaurant buys more from the local butcher and hires an extra waiter.

That waiter can now come off benefits and all the people in the story pay more tax.

(Money doesn't circulate nearly so well in an off shore account though - which is why paying your workers can be a smart thing to do if you want vibrant local services).

Now what happens when the people decide they are going to buy a holiday to Spain, buy a German car or kit their house out with all the Chinese tat. What happens to the extra money then?

Winterday1991 · 01/02/2023 19:24

Tessasanderson · 01/02/2023 16:05

I understand everyones comments about the government finding the money etc etc etc.

The thing i cant understand is what we are trying to achieve here. Stick with me as i am not the best at explaining things.

So we have big inflation at the moment because everything is expensive, all the materials are expensive and cost of living is just impossible. For decades people have borrowed money they cant really afford because borrowing was cheap. It hasnt taken much of a increase for it to hit a lot of people hard. Yes :-)

The govenrment is trying to reduce the inflation by reducing peoples ability to spend. Ie raise interest rates. Make mortgages more expensive so they cant buy houses. In general just making things harder. Yes :-)

So if we give nurses/teachers/blue light workers/everyone else that is due a wage rise an inflation busting wage rise.........WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

From where i sit the teachers and the rest who get this big (Justified) pay rise end up in status quo. No worse off but essentially just treading water or possibly slightly better off. The economy gets a bigger boost because some rather large parts of society get a bit of security and start to move the economy on again, possibly back into increased inflation...........BUT what about the other HUGE chunk of the population who are left behind. The ones who didnt get that pay rise and have to deal with ever increasing inflation. The vast majority of our society who arent lucky enough to work for big institutions and havent got unions/rest of the public fighting their corner.

I can only forsee huge pain for those that havent got much to begin with. There is going to be even bigger gaps between the haves and the have nots.

Am i missing something?

I totally agree

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 19:24

Mellymoon · 01/02/2023 17:05

They pay agency nurses way more than nhs nurses- if they can afford to do that then why not just pay nurses better and encourage retention?
also the government could actually make companies and their mates who avoid tax pay what they should and it would pay for the entire NHS.

I think you need to look at who owns the agencies...

Blueisthecolor · 01/02/2023 19:26

I work for the government and I've had no pay rise this year. Yes that's 0% and in the years before that it has been zero or 0.5%, the most I've had in7yrs is 1.5% and that was a one off mostly it's been 0.5%.

I will say though that I know the sector I work in they had budgeted for 3% but they gave it all to the lowest paid workers as they want to appear to be a living wage employer 🙄 so they got 7-8% and the rest of us got nada, effectively they gave my pay rise to someone else!

Also I work in finance so I know a lot of what goes on and I know that they do indeed find money for things. £m's of pounds spent on stuff and I'm thinking we don't bloody need that or to replace that etc. So it's very frustrating! Plus they seem to have found money for other areas to offer decent pay rises (even though they are also being rejected).

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 19:26

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 19:08

That sounds like faith in something happening

I’m not seeing much so far that suggests Labour are going to do much that is very good.

Have you heard their specific policies so far - which stand out as being good?

It’s always a matter of perspective but any party that starts using ‘tax the rich’ narrative for votes sounds on a losing path- people can go.

It does gain votes but not much more. Blair at least had the sense not to do this. Imo Labour won’t look at the difficult stuff that could make a difference (Brexit) but will throw everything they’ve heard might poll well regardless because 13 years is a very long time to be out and they don’t want to risk another Ed Miliband.

That approach makes me feel less positive, but we’ll see I guess.

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Things that sound on the right track to me include significantly increasing training places for doctors and nurses, investing in breakfast and homework clubs in schools and investment in green energy tech, including through a nationalised green energy company.

But I think we will also see more in the next year.

Also, Labour are very deliberately not running on a ‘tax the rich’ message. Controversially so. So that criticism of them just sounds like a lazy conservative talking point.

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 19:26

PartyHelp · 01/02/2023 19:08

Teachers are not striking for more money, they are asking for better working conditions, respect (as in for their profession to be treated with respect) and for pay comensurate with their expertise/at a deserved rate.

Sorry but this isn't true. They are only looking for more money. The NEU is demanding a fully-funded, above-inflation pay rise, while NASUWT has asked for a 12 per cent rise. The NAHT is seeking a fully-funded pay award at the rate of inflation last September, when it was 10.1 per cent, plus 5 per cent.

Nothing about school funding etc. and of course they are perfectly entitled to strike for more pay, good luck to them if they haven't had proper payrises in years they are entitled to it but I'm really sick of reading the 'well they are just trying to fix the schools BS on MN, all schools are underfunded etc.' as if they are just being altruistic by striking!

People in this country don't know they are born when it comes to schools and the amount of resources they have and the fact you have to pay for basically nothing except for school uniform.

That's only because the law has very limited grounds on which one is allowed to strike, pay being one of them.

Jux · 01/02/2023 19:26

It's too late to take it from the HS2 project isn't it. Or could theyhalt it, divert the dosh until such time as we can afford such stuff?

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 19:30

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 19:26

Things that sound on the right track to me include significantly increasing training places for doctors and nurses, investing in breakfast and homework clubs in schools and investment in green energy tech, including through a nationalised green energy company.

But I think we will also see more in the next year.

Also, Labour are very deliberately not running on a ‘tax the rich’ message. Controversially so. So that criticism of them just sounds like a lazy conservative talking point.

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Well I don’t agree with that last line, lazy not to read up on what is being said rather.

Private school tax and Non Dom tax are exactly that -vote winners but fairly poor policies in terms of return

I haven’t made those up. They’re going for a certain type of vote when using these. They were absent from Blair’s campaign though so an obvious difference.

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 19:33

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 19:30

Well I don’t agree with that last line, lazy not to read up on what is being said rather.

Private school tax and Non Dom tax are exactly that -vote winners but fairly poor policies in terms of return

I haven’t made those up. They’re going for a certain type of vote when using these. They were absent from Blair’s campaign though so an obvious difference.

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Taxing people in the UK on their UK earnings, and making private education services subject to the same taxes as any other private goods or services is not some radical tax the rich proposal.

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 19:34

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 19:30

Well I don’t agree with that last line, lazy not to read up on what is being said rather.

Private school tax and Non Dom tax are exactly that -vote winners but fairly poor policies in terms of return

I haven’t made those up. They’re going for a certain type of vote when using these. They were absent from Blair’s campaign though so an obvious difference.

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Don't worry @MarshaBradyo it turns out there is still a 1% chance of the Tories being the largest party in the next parliament.

www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 19:34

Jux · 01/02/2023 19:26

It's too late to take it from the HS2 project isn't it. Or could theyhalt it, divert the dosh until such time as we can afford such stuff?

There was talk the other day from someone (not sure who do maybe just speculation on what could happen) about stopping the line early, not London and selling land around Euston. Seems a shame though

Tirediam · 01/02/2023 19:35

Well they managed to pull a billion out of their arses for the DUP didn’t they?

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 19:39

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 19:34

There was talk the other day from someone (not sure who do maybe just speculation on what could happen) about stopping the line early, not London and selling land around Euston. Seems a shame though

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They have already scrapped the trans Pennine part of HS2 where there was actually a need for it.

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 19:40

Tirediam · 01/02/2023 19:35

Well they managed to pull a billion out of their arses for the DUP didn’t they?

Coincentally, a billion pounds would settle the teachers pay dispute.
In fact all the disputes with public sector workers could be settled for less than 1% of total government spending.

Oblomov22 · 01/02/2023 19:42

My thoughts exactly. Everyone is striking it seems. I don't doubt their worthiness, but Where's the money coming from. Government can't give out money it doesn't have.