To wonder where all the money is going to come from to increase wages?

[girlfriend44]

Genuine question. Re people who are striking for more money.

Where do they think the extra money is going to come from to increase all their wages and how will this keep inflation down?
Can the government really afford to pay everyone more?

All of this. Plus....

...the other point of the teachers' strike which is for a FULLY FUNDED pay rise.

It's all very well and good for the government to agree a 5% pay increase, but if school budgets don't also increase, combined with costs being higher (heating, resources etc) it means cuts elsewhere. Either essentials aren't available, or maintenance is delayed, or the heating is turned down, or staff numbers are cut. All this leads to a lower standard of education for children.

The main issue is if the people working in the NHS for instance are given a pay rise, that won't make the service miraculously great again. It means we'll be paying more for a service that isn't fit for purpose.

The tax burden is still mostly taken by top centiles but figures on what changes people want to tax rates would be simpler

That's quite an indictment of the huge income inequality in this country though.

Our income tax system is a bit of a mess - Very broad bands with very steep increases at each. More tax bands with more graduation through the system would be a better option.

Plus sorting out dividend tax, as someone else said.

the teachers shown on the news are saying they need to have second jobs, due to money

Many less unequal countries have a land or property tax. That might be a good place to start.

They need to tax wealth hoarders to get money circulating again. It’s not as hard to do as they tell us.

The interesting thing is that the high wealth inequality only exists between the very top and bottom 5%'s. The 90% of people floating around "the middle" are all pretty equal.

You're right, it's just one part of improvements needed to the NHS. It is needed though.

no but a better pay for workers will encourage more applicants

I asked my DD when does your ward/dept ever run properly? she replied "Only when we have a full team in..." she added which rarely happens.

If staff are leaving, then whatever reforms you or anyone else does... will not work... NHS like education is a people business.

NHS needs investment in staff, equipment and buildings plus reform too but the none of these can be done in isolation.

I'm not actually sure what your point is to be honest? That because you employ a few people you're entitled to something extra?
You're actually a very good example of why we find ourselves in this situation. You're a small fish (not meaning that in a derogatory way), but you'll fight tooth and nail to protect the big fish because you mistakenly think that I, as a monstrous socialist, want to take more from you to give to the "feckless".
I don't by the way, I want the gap to between top and bottom to close, I want the 1% that own 25% of all wealth to, well not own 25% of all wealth. There can still be rich and poor, just in my ideal world the rich won't be obscenely rich and the poor will be able to afford a nice life with warm homes, full bellys and comfortable retirements regardless of career choice.
The fact you get so defensive about things suggests to me you see alot of yourself in what I post about and don't like being confronted by it.

I totally agree that our SME is very small fry! But because it's very small, it has to be honest. The pay differential between DH and staff is known to everyone who works there, and I'm fairly certain it's not resented because he created the business and took the risk of failure, and in a downturn we take nothing out, while staff continue on salary.

DH is trying to retire, but to do so without folding the company. It has already taken three years and is still not settled. Trade sale? Possibly. Employee ownership? We've asked and most are unwilling to take the risk. Which goes a long way to explaining the sad statistic that fewer than 25% of entrepreneurs' businesses survive the death or retirement of the founders. Even if we eventually succeed, I promise we shan't be obscenely rich in the sense I surmise you understand the term.

And if making the case for business is being defensive, then my view is that it needs making here from time to time. Very easy to shift blame to "them".

And I won't cross the street to defend the rapacious utilities that harass and hound the elderly poor or the foolish and feckless onto pre-payment meters via thuggish debt collectors, and charge them premium rates for essentials. See this morning's Times if you want the correctness of your derision confirmed, and the wave of revulsion from ToL commentators.

You make good points generally - also re perspectives from SMEs often lacking on here and who carries the risk.

I'll character assassinate anyone I want, thank you. This is mumsnet not The Hague!

You're right on one point however, I should have called you out for contextomy not mimisquoting. Will you ever forgive me??

And the point's only trite because there's a refusal in government to act, so we're stuck making the same wider points.

This might surprise you, but I don't actually have any influence in amending the UK's tax legislation, beyond writing to my MP. I also wasn't aware you were interested in discussing the details of what a new tax system could look like as so far all you've done is take things I say out of context to make an unrelated point and moan when I respond.

It wasn't meant to be disingenuous, it was meant to be an example of how the tax system is set up to benefit the wealthy, I wasn't even thinking about SME owners at the time.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have mentioned a salary of £9100 as apparently that acts as a trigger for SME owners, and I only did so to illustrate that someone can effectively pay no NI for their entire working lives, while earning a good wage, and still qualify for state pension, whereas most of us wouldn't.

I'm not sure why you think being a "normal business owner" should mean you're free to evade tax without people being angry about it? Can I also ask why you count the tax a business pays on profit as a personal tax when speaking about a business owner but not an employee? As it seems to me the only reason to do this is to try and justify the continuation of an unfair tax system.

It's great that your business is transparent, treats it's employees well and considers them in it's decision making. That's exactly what we need more of in business. I'd also like to apologies for the defensive comments, I have misinterpreted your posts and unfairly jumped to a wrong conclusion.

I appreciate I don't always make myself clear when talking about "them" but my ire isn't aimed at people earning good money from running a good business. I genuinely don't take issue with someone earning £100k, £250k, even £1m pa from a business they've built and taken risks for providing they do so in an ethical and fair way (to my standards of course).

My problem is with people earning good or obscene money from a business that exploits others and cheats the society they benefit from and with any business or business owner who opposes reform that would allow us start addressing the issue.

Apology accepted @Thebestwaytoscareatory !

Let's say you own a business that will make 50000 a year. You can either be self employed and be pretty much taxed as a PAYE person or you can set up a LTD company and be paid via dividends.
Since you would be the sole owner you would work out what tax you are paying so corporation tax would feature in the working out. Also. not forgetting you would be paying a lot more for you accountant for the LTD company.

I have a limited company that employs people, we work in the gas industry, the only reason I have a limited company is nothing to do with saving tax but is the liability our family would have if one of our employees makes a mistake.

When talking about saving NI one of the main ways of avoiding it is via umbrella companies that a lot in the media use. IR35 was the way the government has sort to correct this. It says that if you work solely for one person or company you should be employed not self employed.

Funny how the presenters on LBC are suddenly against IR35 when it means them paying more tax.

When talking about saving NI one of the main ways of avoiding it is via umbrella companies that a lot in the media use
This is incorrect.
You don't know what an umbrella company is or how it works.

IR35 was the way the government has sort[sic] to correct this. It says that if you work solely for one person or company you should be employed not self employed.
That isn't what IR35 says - it is way more complex than that and working solely for one employer isn't relevant.

In this country there are far too much money in the hands of too few. These few hoard a vast amount of wealth. The government can choose to redistribute this using a variety of means, they just don’t want to and this is the consequence of the corruption that infiltrates politics. It’s obscene and morally wrong that billionaires even exist.

If inflation is running at 10% then (all other things being equal) the government's income goes up by 10%, because things like the amount of income tax raised will go up. So the government can afford to pay more in wages.

(All other things are not equal, and in fact tax revenue is falling, partly due to brexit as the economy shrinks, but we would have had to deal with that anyway (by cutting spending and/or raising borrowing).)

So true.

Ultimately, tax. But where that burden falls and whether efficiency savings and business boosts are considered too is a matter for policy experts and politicians (the latter, being the owns who decide whether to follow advice or not).

In any event, it looks like the government are going to withdraw the offers currently on the table for the NHS and teachers. Given inflation is about to start falling rapidly, I suspect the unions have shit themselves in the foot by refusing to accept and they will end up with a pay freeze after all.

A pay freeze would be nice. The government are proposing a pay cut.