Page 4 | To wonder where all the money is going to come from to increase wages?

girlfriend44 · 2023-02-01T15:05:50+00:00

Genuine question. Re people who are striking for more money. Where do they think the extra money is going to come from to increase all their wages and how will this keep inflation down? Can the government really afford to pay everyone more?

fyn · 01/02/2023 16:31

I don’t know, increasing wages that much is just going to drive up inflation even more and I’m sure they’ll strike again so the cycle will begin again. We just need to ride it out, surely it’s a pretty basic economic principle. Before anyone starts, I am a civil servant on a low band currently and my DH is a soldier who earns half of what he could in the private sector. I think he’d be off to Colchester if he went on strike.

Pyewhacket · 01/02/2023 16:31

GrumpyPanda · 01/02/2023 16:14

You're making a classical mistake, which is assuming that countries are like households. They're not. Balanced budgets at the risk of slipping into recession is precisely the wrong move in circumstances like the present.

Here's a thread that does an excellent job discussing the strikes and the present-dat British economy:

mobile.twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1620701720132337665

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Well, if its on Twitter it must be right.

ThisIsTrifficult · 01/02/2023 16:33

Look at the twitter or blog of Richard Murphy. He's really helped me to understand the finances of our country (not to the point where I can succinctly explain it!) and it's fascinating and frustrating.

Whatsshecalled · 01/02/2023 16:34

PeppermintChoc · 01/02/2023 16:10

Public servants have been underpaid for far too long (I am not nor have I ever been one by the way!)

i am a public servant and I don’t agree. I think a huge majority of public servants would have a huge shock if they went to the private sector. I honestly think if my colleagues when to the private sector for a year they’d never contemplate striking again. I am paid less than I was in the private sector. But there are many advantages and one is vastly different workload.

Well you're very lucky. I left the civil service last year after 10yrs, I left a team that had been reduced from 10 people to 4 people but where the workload had increased approx 3 fold, there was a requirement to staff a 24/7 rota all year round between just 4 people, no meaningful pay rise for 10yrs. They have a huge recruitment crisis and this was a familuar situation within many depts I worked with. Not all public/civil servants are as lucky as you but I'm glad your conditions are good.

Aleaiactaest · 01/02/2023 16:34

The IMF are not that reliable in their predictions. Plenty of critique on numerous issues can be thrown their way.

2o23 · 01/02/2023 16:34

If they get pay rises then tax will have to go up. Then there'll be screaming and wailing again.

KnittedCardi · 01/02/2023 16:35

Labour took over from the Conservatives when world economies were all on the up, inc. UK Plc. They had some great years, but then at the end of those golden years, there was nothing left, they blew the lot. Growth will never be the same again, particularly in evolved Western nations, regardless of what you do. We may get a small boost from the Green Revolution but what then, what's next? You never know what is coming along to bite you in the arse, regardless of who is in charge.

TheGoogleMum · 01/02/2023 16:36

Here's a question for you OP
If the government don't fund any pay increases what will we do about the increasing staff shortages in public sector jobs? In areas like nursing staffing is already dangerously low in places. So if everyone leaves because the pay isn't worth it what will we do then?

I don't think they can afford not to increase pay

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 16:36

KnittedCardi · 01/02/2023 16:35

Labour took over from the Conservatives when world economies were all on the up, inc. UK Plc. They had some great years, but then at the end of those golden years, there was nothing left, they blew the lot. Growth will never be the same again, particularly in evolved Western nations, regardless of what you do. We may get a small boost from the Green Revolution but what then, what's next? You never know what is coming along to bite you in the arse, regardless of who is in charge.

I think But Jeremy Corbyn is a more convincing argument.

MarshaBradyo · 01/02/2023 16:36

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 16:29

No - if Labour had been in Government, we would probably have seen sound economic growth in the 2011 to 2020 period.

Then when the pandemic hit we would be entering it with:

(a) lower debt to GDP because of nine previous years of higher growth
(b) higher wages because of (i) less unnecessary austerity and (ii) stronger incentives for profits to be invested in private sector growth or wages rather than hoarded.

So a Labour Government wouldn't have avoided the economic hits of a pandemic and a war.

But they would have been able to weather those hits much more effectively, with much more fiscal headroom to get through them.

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Hard to say how much the upswing just before a crash was Labour or just general global boom and bust that impacted us a lot in both directions.

Sillysop92 · 01/02/2023 16:37

There is always money, it just depends what the Tories want to spend it on - usually themselves or their mates! They don't want to spend it to make millions of people's lives better that's for sure. Greedy self-serving bastards!

TalkSomeSense1 · 01/02/2023 16:37

SleeplessInEngland · 01/02/2023 15:27

You haven't but lots of other people who know nothing about economics and think government spending is like household spending have. It's a dullard question.

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Not at all a 'dullard question' and slightly unfair. I don't get the impression the Op was trying to be inflammatory by asking at all but appears to want to genuinely know. Perhaps turn it around and think 'I'll answer this question the best way I know how without making the questioner feel small or stupid for asking'.

Honestly sometimes getting off a soapbox and thinking replies through before belittling people is a much better way to interact and would lead more people to understand your point of view.

itsgettingweird · 01/02/2023 16:39

Neededanewuserhandle · 01/02/2023 15:09

Not this again. Same place it came from for all the PPE backhanders, etc, etc. etc.
Paying people a proper wage will bring in more income tax, NI, VAT, fuel duty etc - it's not a simple equation.
The government could do it if they wanted to - their refusal is due to ideology not on the basis of practical economics.

Yep.

As constantly pointed out.

Plus if those in government actually deemed themselves worthy of paying taxes there would be even more!

Increasing wages will reduce the UC bill.

It is a choice. It based on ideology. They believe wealth is only for those whose create it themselves rather than those who drive the public services which run the country.

Twillow · 01/02/2023 16:39

Fishing for ideas, Rishi?
For a start, the government could pay for their own dinners while they're at work, like the rest of us.

EffortlessDesmond · 01/02/2023 16:40

capx.co/how-can-jeremy-hunt-turn-his-tax-rhetoric-into-reality/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=01%2F02%2F2023+

Some thoughts on altering the tax system to encourage growth and make the UK more competitive internationally...

gogohmm · 01/02/2023 16:41

There was no money for the ppe either - it was all borrowing. There is no magic money tree.

TalkSomeSense1 · 01/02/2023 16:42

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 16:01

It's not correct that the only way to fund additional spending is through increased taxes, or reduced spending, or increased borrowing. At least not in the longer term which is the right way to view public finances.

The best way to fund increased spending on, e.g. pay (or anything else) is for the economy to grow faster than borrowing, so that debt as a proportion of GDP is falling even if it is growing in raw numbers.

If the Tories had grown the economy like the last Labour Government did, there would be far more fiscal headroom to fund pay increases. And actually, a Labour Government probably wouldn't have let pay become so bad in the first place, so workers would be more willing to ride out a couple of tough years to get over an inflation spike. But after thirteen years or needless austerity, public sector workers just can't take another real terms pay cut.

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But didn't the need for austerity come about when Labour were voted out leaving little or nothing in the pot? There was growth during the last Labour government in the same way there was growth during the Thatcher years (globally too - not just the work of our governments) but in both cases we had a massive amount of re-balancing to do.

millymollymoomoo · 01/02/2023 16:43

People here are not understanding the level of national debt we are in and our impact to pay that. We can’t keep adding to it snd can’t just keep squeezing the middle !

we have to have sensible conversation about his to fund public services, eliminate huge amounts of waste, restructure organisations, productivity in public sector, restructure public pensions, while also eliminating tax loop holes etc

unfortunately as soon as these are mentioned people usually wind up in fit of hysteria rather than actually having rational informed discussion

badgermushrooms · 01/02/2023 16:45

PeppermintChoc · 01/02/2023 16:10

Public servants have been underpaid for far too long (I am not nor have I ever been one by the way!)

i am a public servant and I don’t agree. I think a huge majority of public servants would have a huge shock if they went to the private sector. I honestly think if my colleagues when to the private sector for a year they’d never contemplate striking again. I am paid less than I was in the private sector. But there are many advantages and one is vastly different workload.

That's true for me, an office worker, although it doesn't explain why I should continue to take a year on year pay cut in return for the dubious privilege of being allowed to finish on time more often than not. But I dare you to say that to an A&E nurse.

LyingDogsLie1 · 01/02/2023 16:46

TeaKlaxon · 01/02/2023 16:16

So why is the public sector struggling so much to retain people?

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Every sector is struggling with recruitment and retention.

Hbh17 · 01/02/2023 16:47

These idiots on strike seem to forget that it's not Government money, it's ours - because what the Government spends comes from our taxes. Do they really want huge tax increases? They should really try working in the private sector, where pay rises are small or non-existent. Or be self-employed, when it can take months to get paid for a job (and no sick or holiday pay, either).

PeppermintChoc · 01/02/2023 16:48

badgermushrooms · 01/02/2023 16:45

That's true for me, an office worker, although it doesn't explain why I should continue to take a year on year pay cut in return for the dubious privilege of being allowed to finish on time more often than not. But I dare you to say that to an A&E nurse.

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Is pay their biggest issue or is it being generally short staffed and mismanaged?

safeplanet · 01/02/2023 16:49

We don't want more QE, that's fucked things up, particularly for the younger generations.

We need higher taxes but hard to do when we have wage stagnation, shit services & high inequality.

We also have the huge ageing population issue & no real growth.

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 16:49

millymollymoomoo · 01/02/2023 16:43

People here are not understanding the level of national debt we are in and our impact to pay that. We can’t keep adding to it snd can’t just keep squeezing the middle !

we have to have sensible conversation about his to fund public services, eliminate huge amounts of waste, restructure organisations, productivity in public sector, restructure public pensions, while also eliminating tax loop holes etc

unfortunately as soon as these are mentioned people usually wind up in fit of hysteria rather than actually having rational informed discussion

This huge amount of waste in the public sector, presumably that includes schools.
It is quite easy to compare state and private schools, there is a massive difference in funding, for a small difference in outcomes. Are you sure you know where the waste is?

jgw1 · 01/02/2023 16:50

safeplanet · 01/02/2023 16:49

We don't want more QE, that's fucked things up, particularly for the younger generations.

We need higher taxes but hard to do when we have wage stagnation, shit services & high inequality.

We also have the huge ageing population issue & no real growth.

We don't so much need higher taxation as everyone paying the same proportion of their income in tax as say someone on 20,000 a year.