Too Much Grief?

[Suki2023]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolonged_grief_disorder

This is the most recent to be added to the DSM-5-TR as a disorder.

Now I know there's the stance 'we all grieve in our own way' but in reality, there's a typical way of grieving. A typical time period and for those who do suffer for longer, they may need professional help.

My query to look at others opinions is, is there inappropriate grief when it starts to affect others?

I'm thinking of when someone who is a narcissist suffers loss, and then will use that loss to increase suffering around them, using the loss as the reason.

I think narcissists can and do use loss to abuse, what do you think?

I think you should clarify what your “AIBU” is or post on Mental health

Oh yes, I'm sorry I didn't realise how it would look and should have been more clear.

I guess as a specific question,

AIBU on
Grief is personal, someone might suffer in different ways but if it affects others negatively it can be abusive - that grief can therefore become 'dysfunctional' - I think it can, and can be used to abuse. Am I unreasonable in thinking that?

It sounds like there’s a specific example you want to discuss so why not do that and get some advice. Official diagnoses don’t matter if you feel a relationship you’re in is damaging to your wellbeing.

I’m off put by your use of narcissist because it’s so commonly used on here as an insult to be basically meaningless.

But be open about what you’re thinking and need instead of couching it as a discussion on a new diagnosis or whatever.

There’s a very thin line there, I remember when my dad died I seriously wallowed, the day of his funeral I walked around sobbing hysterically nearly all day and the day became about looking after me. I was literally just so absorbed in the loss but also my surroundings. And I disagree about there being a finite structure to grieving, because everyone handles and feels it differently, and has different reasons to grieve the way they are. Personally I hate the word narcissistic anyway, because I find in so many more cases it’s about the person calling the other a narcissist because they can’t empathise with them or see that the other person might have issues!!!

I was like that for 5 years after my Dh left.

Im not a narcissist.

Well, I don't qualify under the DSM criteria but I could under the ICD. Not that I'm in any kind of denial that they are dead.

As I lost an older child, I think lifelong grief and being affected by it is normal and shouldn't be pathologised if the person is basically getting through life okay.

I also find the suggestion that narcissists can use loss in a self-serving way mildly offensive and questionable. Not that I don't think you're right, but I'd hate someone to judge the limitations my grief imposes through that lens. I'd also like to know if they are so I can remove them from my life.

I agree that the term is over used. The people I'm thinking of are two who've lost their spouses.

One is a guy who's wife passed away from alcoholism, and it's been at least ten years. Each year on her birthday, he had a big drink session with all their old friends etc, but also with his new partner having to attend. Now I understand people have a past, but this new partner is a friend and I know it hurts her to feel like a booby prize by being at these 'birthday parties' where not only does she not drink, but she gets lots of really inappropriate comments from the drunken people there paying 'tribute' to the wife who passed away, and she finds it heartbreaking.

My MIL is doing something similar, my husband suffered from anxiety terribly for years, and turned to heavy drinking himself. He's been dry now for a long time, but his mother has been the catalyst for his mental health issues as she's always treated him like an accessory to her life, too many examples to list but she followed him throughout school (took a job in each school he was in), her adult kids are now all in their 40s but she will literally scream if they don't want to do Christmas/ Birthdays/ Easter/Bonfire night etc etc her way and no other way. Even when my FIL was passing away, his kids asked to have an hour with him but were refused, she has one daughter who married exactly as mum wanted, and one who called it off as she in her own words got so dragged down by bullying she couldn't have anything the way she wanted it.

When I married my OH, she had tantrum after tantrum and was horrible about every thing because as we were in our 40s and adults we chose things ourselves. So for example, I designed my own wedding dress and she told me I mustn't make it myself (I've done dressmaking for years) as maybe I couldn't keep a wedding dress clean and white (I didn't wear white, it was just another dig).

She refused to help with the food, we did our own catering, but then demanded I give one of the dishes to her so she could bring it as she didn't want her friends to think we'd done it all so I had to let her, and then she lost the spoon (I didn't care, all small stuff to me) but she told my FIL to look for a similar one on the wedding day morning while I was getting ready plus sorting the flowers/food/ venue issues etc - my OH wasn't here, he had to go to her house for photos to make it look traditional as if he was leaving her home to get married, despite having lived away from there since the age of 15.

She sat where my daughter was supposed to with my grandson to bring the rings, complained that she didn't have assisted seating for her and her sister who's in a wheelchair (nobody was having allocated seating) so I did set them a table near the toilets where she'd asked for it, when I got to the reception she was sat in the corner table in front of the nibbles, so nobody could get to them so she could plug in her beer pump, we had provided mocktails due to having a non alcohol wedding.

Then after she'd refused to help at all, mocked the dress, my bouquet, told me my OH wouldn't love me as he would eternally be in love with his school gf, recoiled from my best friend as he's Indian, and so much more she got her grandson to stand up at the wedding and announce she'd done it all so she could have a round of fake applause.

The finale was she'd been asked to lock up after we left the reception but she got drunk and just didn't, so we got calls into the night until one of my friends sorted it. We had to have the venue near her house, but then she booked a hotel so she still could enjoy the 'wedding night' - she insisted we drop some of our guests so her friends could come, she snatched the car park keys from my husband at the reception to let her friends park even though we'd told her that parking was needed for the DJ/ band/catering van.

We donated the left over food to the homeless, apart from some cakes her neighbours had entered into our cake competition (she came over early the next morning so we had to dash from our wedding night hotel to get them for her to take back).

Most hurtful of all, when FIL passed away, my husband was still struggling with heavy drinking - she knew this but insisted they both go and buy fast cars with the inheritance - hubby told her he was feeling very low, and not managing well and had felt suicidal (it was during covid, and he had lost his job) and said he would rather use the money for therapy. She also mocks therapy so got angry and then refused to see him for almost a year, she would text abuse and nastiness and even though he begged as he just lost his dad and didn't want to lose his mum she said he didn't love her or he'd do what she wanted! I decided to tell her I wouldn't speak to her while she was being abusive, so she tried to call me (while refusing to take calls from hubby) and I left it at that.

This went on over 2 years, at New Year I sent her a text saying I would like us all to move on positively - she still didn't reply and is still being nasty to hubby, even though he's had his therapy, stopped drinking etc and is still getting nasty comments, always put downs, nasty remarks and manipulative behaviour.

He told her to process his dad's passing out would help to have a place where his ashes are scattered - she's said no. Then he said he would like to do a memorial plaque - that also got a no, and with it another guilt trip that he should wait until she passes and be thinking about her plaque, and his dad can be added to it.

Now she's having an 'event' to mark FIL passing, on Easter Sunday! She's hired a hall, it's a booze up, everyone she knows it expected to go and give up their weekend easter plans.

It might sound like it's just me being sour, but in fact everyone (hubby, one sister, all in laws, friends of the family etc) all say they don't like being around her due to how nasty she is to and about everyone, she gossips, she's racist, she drinks and gets mean, she gets so hysterical the adults and kids get uncomfortable and can't even eat, sleep, enjoy anything where she is. Yet they're all scared of 'upsetting' her even though she's permanently in a state of mean.

This is another example though of her trying to get people to do what she wants, she's already said anyone not coming to this party are disrespectful of FIL birthday. But he passed away 2 years ago and was a gentleman who always thought of others, I think he'd be mortified by this - I have Easter plans and she doesn't talk to me anymore (thank goodness) , but others are giving in while upsetting partners/ family etc and I'm being told I'm 'lucky' as I don't 'have' to be involved anymore. I see this as another example of narcissistic control, using grief to get others to do things they funny want, like my friend and her partners birthday parties for his ex?

I don't know. But I do know that narcissists are as much victims of narcissism as those around them. It isn't just interchangeable with 'horrid person '. Others (except children) are in control of how much they respond to behaviour they don't like.

Your MIL's issues would probably exist in one form or other, even without a loss to plan events for.

I know if my DH died I'd still miss him a lot in ten years, so I won't get into time limits.

I agree that it's not time bound, grief takes many forms and I think if you love someone you will always miss them.

That's why I put other examples of the self centred behaviour that's been a pattern for over 8 years (everyone was/is controlled, it incudes FIL who got up each day to a list) it includes my OH who's still struggling with his grief, and is treated like he shouldn't even have any, and was told his grief doesn't matter, losing a partner is worse than losing a father.

This is not a situation either where empathy isn't shown, it was months after his passing that then became a direction to spend money only on a fast car instead of therapy, and no anger, just a request to use the money that way the resulted in a very hostile reaction.

I thought it reasonable and even something to be supportive of that he wanted to deal with his feelings in therapy - he wasn't asking for cash, and the car wasn't needed or a good idea, but it's a typical reaction of his mother to get really furious if anyone questions anything tbh

YABU.
Your MIL's awful behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with prolonged grief disorder. That is a truly awful disorder and I don't think it was fair of you to start a thread with an opening post which basically questioned whether grief is inappropriate. Grief is grief. It can take years and some people do develop serious mental health complications. I am still in the middle of this after my father died 3 years ago. I took a very very long time to get over my mother's death - almost 7 years before I felt in any way "normal".

Your MIL's behaviour is a completely different issue. She was vile and narcissistic long before FIL died. You haven't given any examples of how she is using grief as an excuse to abuse. She is just abusive full stop and doesn't need an excuse! Even if FIL hadn't died she would still be going on like this.
You don't have to go to the Easter Sunday gathering. Nor does your DH.
You'd be better off cutting all contact with her. Absolute nightmare.

I'm really sorry if it felt unfair. I genuinely appreciate complicated grief, and regarding that DSM criteria, I'm amazed it's in there and how grief can be categorised like that.

I feel grief is personal, and I think because it's something I want to honour in everyone, I'm struggling to not do this for my MIL, as I'm humane and do care at times so much my own friends say I can be easy too give in to others. I have seen my OH suffer a lot and family events usually end with a lot of grumbles from people about how they've been treated by my MIL. I guess hubby is in that position of you don't choose your family, but his own grief has been completely dismissed, he's been told its 'nothing' and he needs to just think about how she feels, and to 'get over it' when he was at his lowest.

After talking to a couple of friends I heard about this birthday party for the ex wife, and how this upsets his current partner. Another friend told me about the DSM classifying grief in this way, and about narcissism and it made me wonder if others have felt the same, where it's harder to give empathy to those who don't seem to have it in them?

I'm sorry for your loss, my parents both passed away before I was 40, and I've missed them many times, especially as my children and grandchildren grow up. I can't ever imagine rejecting mine even at my lowest. I just can't do that to anyone without feeling I've let them down, or let myself down

Your MIL sounds awful but I don't see why you need to pathologise it as a grief disorder. She probably does have some sort of disorder but it's clearly not grief related.

Awful manipulative people will use anything they've got.

I think the inner struggle I'm having really is in supporting my husband regardless of how I get treated.

So for 18 months, I planned, bought, budgeted and hand crafted our wedding - she stood up and took a round of applause for it, she'd not only refused to help but literally took things away.

Then, 2 years of him grieving for his father, 3 years of we count the year of the sad progress of his terminal cancer, and him turning to drink, us nearly losing our home etc she's throwing a get together.. the hard grieving is done, all the lowest points over and now it's yet another bizarre arrangement, a kind of birthday party not on the birthday but on a day when usually people have their own plans, and when hubby argued with me it was on the basis of 'right to grieve' - but this isn't about grief to me, that was on the floor emotional breakdown over years with his mother never being around.

I guess I've got my answers in replies here - and I'm not surprised some people have been angry about their own grief. I don't think this is about grief at all, with my MIL or my friends fiancé, and that might sound awful and it might resonate with people who feel loss but I don't think loss is an excuse to treat others badly.

Birthday parties, for people who have passed seem to be so very inappropriate I don't feel guilty about saying that. I spoke to my OH about this, and he seems to now feel it's not how he wants to pay tribute to his dad. I do feel for him, he's got no resting place to visit, it's left him in the position of the only tribute is this.

I find it rather twisted and I do think this is narcissistic, to act as if one way of grieving (with MIL and this other character) needs to go ahead, involving others in such a selfish way

I know someone who has a family birthday party for her deceased child every year. It's completely appropriate as it has meaning for her and helps keep her child's memory alive. I personally don't and go the opposite way, which is also completely appropriate, as that's what is right for us.

We can't evaluate other people's grief and how they express this. You can set boundaries around your participation, but they can do whatever they want.

I highly recommend Jerry Wise podcasts. It is incredibly helpful about how you can healthily manage these kinds of relationships.

Btw the grief aspect is a completely separate issue.

I've had time to think about this, and I still feel in the context of grief I have brought up a point that is relevant to me and my situation.

Yesterday would have been my father's birthday, tomorrow is 12 years to the day that my mother died. It's a time of year when they're on my mind, and when my mother passed so close to that date (my father died in 2003) it resonated that this would be a hard time of year. The last time I saw my mother, was the day before my sons 16th birthday - she lived miles away so I dashed home, made a birthday cake and planned to be back on the 4th (so 12 years ago today). However, the place to stay was cancelled last second, I was in work and the systems were down, I couldn't book another hotel at short notice. I called my mother who's was chatty and seemed to be OK. 5am I woke, after a strange dream and grabbed my phone to read a message from my sister dashing to her side, I rang straight away and she was gone. I was too late, she was alone, even my sister didn't get there in time.

Now each year I get to my sons birthday with those dates looming. It's never easy, but I still celebrate his birthday with him, and move through the next few days in my own way, still working, or whatever and continue life. I do like it that way, I've lost in other ways too, in pregnancy, other family and friends and my grief is mine and I don't bring it up each time.

This week, I've sat and listened to Easter Sunday being a date to mark, which actually isn't a date, it's just close to it. From a man who grieved so hard over the last 3 years, he came close to not wanting to be here, it came close to destroying our marriage and it damaged my health, there was so much hostility from his mother, and it became about money. I've always hated people focusing on money to the expense of others well being. So yes, after getting through things I have in my life, and then an already abusive old witch deciding if hubby wouldn't spend money on a fast car while he had a drink problem and then only sending spite which wound him up more for 2 years, she can take HER so called grief, which she actually avoided sharing with her family, and not simply say it's Easter, family matters! Others may not use it, but this narcissistic creature is, and I apologise in no way at all for that evaluation. She's turned Easter into a grief performance and farce, it's for show and when it really matters she didn't and still doesn't give one rats @** about feelings, family, respect or love.

She has her hall, I hope it whistles with an attendances deserving of a self centred narcissist!

Grief does not excuse abuse! Not her and not anyone is excused for abusing people, it's not a free ticket to treat people like cr@p

It sounds like you MIL is a nightmare and did her best to wreck your wedding. I am really struggling to see how you have pegged this onto prolonged grief disorder, and why?

She was awful before she was bereaved, and is being awful afterwards too, surely that is the long and short of it?

I feel it's because this part has been her at her most abusive. I could take some of the comments and terrible behaviour as I'm an adult, I've been through worse. It was when she turned on my husband it became so much more damaging, it got to him more than it ever could to me and the cruelty of not letting him be with his father was awful, then she hid the will, my husband asked for one thing to remember his father - it was an multi pocket workmen's jacket, his father used to fix cars and my husband had spent many hours with his father, away from the nightmare woman doing that - it was their father and son time. She mocked and dismissed, and eventually gave it to him and said "it wasn't even his really, it was second hand so it really means something to someone else". It all sounds kind of small stuff, she wanted to plant flowers in the garden as someone had given them remembrance roses (gifted to her, and the two daughters, one with hubby's name on, but none actually to him) so he took a plant and was again mocked.

It's hard to describe the bullying, but when he made one attempt to talk to her and tell her she can be 'insensitive' (putting it very mildly) she went bananas, screaming how she's not loved (with him now desperately apologising, and trying to calm the hysteria) and she banned him from her life for months, and after this has only called him over to keep apologising! His therapist actually advised him that this was toxic, and breaking free might be the only way to stop having this break hubby down over and over. So when this came up, it's Easter Sunday not his dad's birthday and to hire a hall hubby was again anxious about what to expect - she turned his whole family against him by saying he broke her heart when she was grieving (he messaged her constantly with love, offers of help, apologising over and over) and all he said was she could be hurtful.

At Christmas, the first one after losing his dad he begged her to let him come and have a cuppa and she refused, he said he'd just lost his dad and couldn't cope with losing his mum too, and was still told no. I honestly read those messages and watched my OH cry and keep trying while the nasty horror kept as cold as ice.

Just a he's getting to two years afterwards, he's put his life back together, he's healthy and doing well, we (me and my two kids, and our grandchildren) adore him and we've had peaceful Christmas's, Easters, birthdays etc while he was blanked are now expected to be left out and she's got a huge amount of people invited to her 'tribute' but by now, it's all for show.

One year after his dad passed, they had a gathering of just him and his mum and sisters - she talked about the men she had before his dad, her ex bfs and how she 'settled' - that's the sort of woman she is, and yet she has said she expects everyone to come to her party, or it's 'disrespect' to his dad. It's illogical and I see that because of the loss, she treated everyone worse than ever. Too many examples to list, but she had people get more abuse than ever from her, and all through dismissing anyone's needs but her own

Regardless of how nasty MIL has been in the past, you can’t automatically rule out the fact that she is grieving. 2 years isn’t very long. She may well be using her grief to abuse you all, but only an MH expert would be able to tell you that. It’s normally accepted that grief can turn around and hit you again in the second year after a loss, because this is when you begin to accept your loss, and the fact that this is your life now, and you can’t change it. This could be what’s happening here - or at least part of it.

I agree your mil is horrible. She seems to be trying to use her grief to control those around her, but from what you’ve said she’s never been a particularly loving, kind, considerate mother.

The issue isn’t really grief though, it’s that your dh keeps allowing her to control everything and to lash out and hurt him (and you). He doesn’t actually have to do what she wants. He is the master of his own destiny. As awful as she is he is choosing to allow this and it’s up to him to set boundaries to protect himself.

Your MIL sounds like a horrible person. Without grief she'd find another reason to be like this.

I'm mildly offended by your post. It feels a bit ignorant by mentioning grief in this way. But then I have suffered the loss of sibling as a young adult and a friend as a child, so sadly have experience of losing people prematurely that one never would have anticipated dying before myself, certainly not at my age. It is different when it's the natural order of things IMHO, ie. Parents or grand parents, aunts and uncles.

It's this bit that put my nose a bit out of joint;

but in reality, there's a typical way of grieving. A typical time period

I find lots of people seem to think the loss of my sibling in particular is something I should have moved on from by now (it's been two years). Grief is everlasting I think. It isn't linear. We can backtrack terribly with seemingly little or no reason. Please don't badge grief as why your MIL is like this when she's just a and human.

Having lost my only sibling at a young age, I too find it offensive. Its entirely different from the loss of a parent - I've lost both.

Grief is personal. There is no pathway. Some people never recover. I haven't.

I'm sorry that you find yourself in the same club @Willyoujustbequiet

I am sure you are all too familiar with siblings being the forgotten mourners. I do think it's difficult to understand without having experienced it. I will carry this shadow around with me until the day I die. All the living I do, I do it for me and for him. The living he never got the chance to do.