Aibu to think we need to change the system? Too many men getting away with pump & dump!

[FamilyLife2point4]

Just that I suppose?
Im reading lots of threads about men getting away with sooo much in terms of creating a child. The system here in the UK seems flawed, CMS seem pretty incompetent, courts don’t / won’t enforce men to take on their fair share of parenting / childcare / finances involved in raising a child. Not to mention the emotional benefits for a child’s well-being and sense of belonging at having an active, present, safe father, (whether the parents are together or not).

From what I read, some other countries have far fairer systems and absent parents are actively prosecuted. I am also aware this applies to the smaller minority of absent mothers vs single dads too, but I honestly don’t read anywhere near as many stories of that so this is more focussed on men (no offence intended).

I don’t believe this country will change on its own, but what will it take - those wronged parents (& children) plus supporters perhaps coming together and actively petitioning to change the law? Open to suggestions?

What if we could change the law - what would it look like?
I’m also thinking about this from the other perspective of women who withhold children from their dads (for the variety of wrong reasons - not because the dad is violent / abusive / danger to kids etc) and how a reform could also ensure equality all round.

For clarity my name is as it suggests, happily married with 2 kids, DH grafts hard, would try shirk housework if I let him away with it, but has always been hands on with kids - it just makes me sooo sad and mad at all the inequality I keep reading about.

YANBU - to think that if you do the crime, you do the time - provide for and raise those kids equally - the system needs reformed.

YABU - absent parents / Disney dads should continue to pump and dump kids as they please and we should do fuck all about the system that enables it.

Just on the money side of it. I would find a way to clamp down on the self employed (mainly) father's who abuse that system.

I would also not lower the maintance if the father has moved in with another woman who has a child.

I would love to do something where you can put a tag on their earnings and any assets, in a perfect world, if they are expecting the state to pick up the tab for their child, it would because they cannot afford to do it themselves, not because they are spending money on the next poor sod that came along, with the heartbreaking tale of how their ex refuses to let them see their child.

I would completely leave out contact, as PP have said you cant force them into that, but you can into paying, but a lot of my ideas are very big brother

There are a lot of very sad stories out there, bad behaviour from men and bad decisions made by women.

But your post is so smug and gross that YABU.

Men don’t have a say in abortions, women can override their wishes and bring a child into the world. Yeah yeah two to tango etc but they are literally stuck with what the woman decides. It’s the way it should be, but men can’t be forced to parent.

I completely agree.

Simple answer, women need to stop getting with men. Men will never change, no matter how much you try to educate or berate them, they just don’t care about us and never will.

@Borgonzola yes, Thank you for clearing up my BF boggled minds use of language although @minorproblem did give an alternative description which is potentially also apt
@JudgeRudy you had me up until the second family part (will there be a third, a fourth - who’s paying if he can’t pay for the first - harsh but true)
@WandaWonder he must have agreed the first 5 kids - he could of had a vasectomy / used a condom ….. he still needs to take responsibility for the kids he was happy to create to begin with imo
@BibbleandSqwaukforgive me if I’m wrong but it sounds like your Ex is another example of ‘getting off the hook by walking away’ I feel for you, it’s just not fair or right.

why is the law not putting the rights / needs of the child first at all times? Maybe prosecution / removing passports / driver’s licenses etc is harsh but they are all viable solutions operating in other countries. What other alternatives / deterrents will ensure even a child’s basic needs are being met (I feel we’ve established the base line is the financials)- and for those parents who do not want contact with their own child, what’s being done to ensure these absent parents just don’t simply keep repeating the cycle?

From a good friend who works at the CMS, my work and social circle, the countless threads on here and stats from single parent organisations. If it walks like a duck .....

They would only lose their licence if they dont pay and it works well in other countries. I'm sick to death of the excuses made for men.

Women can opt out of parenthood by having a termination. I think it’s fair that men can also opt out of parenthood by sodding off. I think the system has flaws, but I think your proposal would make things less equal, not more equal.

@FamilyLife2point4 thanks, but really, in comparison to many, I'm ok. He does pay CMS but within one month went from totally normal hands on dad to happy to see them 4 days a month and quibbling over paying anything "extra" when it's completely obvious that in 99% of cases Cms comes nowhere close to 50% of expenses, especially when you factor in loss of earning / opportunity to earn that comes with bring a RP. Thats my reply to the pp upthread who talked about RPs being unrealistic about expectations. Most NRPs can work long days, extra shifts, overnight trips etc or even just stay late for a meeting with absolutely no thought for childcare. RPs can't.

If it works so well in other countries why are they still locking people up and taking away their drivers license? Surely that’s saying it doesn’t actually work. Just criminalises the non paying parent. I’ve also got a friend w high up now in cms, worked her way up. I’ve heard all the anonymised stories too, funny that her take was the middle class professional and self employed men were the ones most determined to avoid paying. I suppose it all depends on perspective.

@Onnabugeisha are you serious? Glaring difference in those two scenarios is the existence of an actual child that needs actual feeding, clothing and parenting. Yeah, sucks for men that in this one single instance they get one less roll of the dice, but all the more reason then for them to wrap it up, or have the snip, regardless of what any woman may tell them.

Agreed.

It's the first time I've seen it used in this context. "Pump and dump" is a term normally associated with crypto currency.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying 2nd families are more important, but they can't be disregarded. Maintenance should in my view be based on residual income. If there isn't any or just a little that's what you get. I'm not suggesting there's one rich and one poor family. Let's say its mum who goes on to have another child and becomes a SAH parent. She's now unable to contribute financially to the upkeep of the two teens.

@gazpachosoupday i like your ideas - I think any implementation would have to be kind of ‘big brother’ like freezing wages / assets etc.
@EatYourVegetables it wasn’t my intention, @Willyoujustbequiet articulates it better than I

Yes. Perfectly serious. Condoms are the least effective form of contraception. And the snip is irreversible. There are no good contraception options for men at all. Womens’ options for contraception are magnitudes more effective and we still allow terminations. We don’t tell women that they should keep their legs closed or get their tubes tied. So that same argument about wrap or snip used on men falls flat.

If a woman gets pregnant, and her boyfriend doesn’t want the baby. She should either have a termination or clothe, feed & raise that child on her income alone. I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to force parenthood on another human being.

You’re wrong, there is an absolutely safe and effective method of contraception for men available out there right now. It’s called abstinence.

Pump and dump? Seriously op?

If someone said women should be abstinent if they didn’t want kids they would most likely be a right wing pro-life type…

There’s no decent male contraception because they don’t want to bother. It’s that simple. If they really wanted one they would have invented it by now. Sure I read years ago about a male ‘pill’ but they wouldn’t take it because of the side effects.

That’s not contraception. 😂
And I suppose if society is to be equal for men and women, then we should be expecting the same of women if they don’t want children? Abstinence. 😂

Wow @Onnabugeisha I'm a bit speechless. Women were in fact told for centuries, right up until about the 1960s to keep their legs closed. In some countries, right now in 2023 they can be executed for sexual "immorality". Having sex is optional. If you are so absolutely damn sure you do not want to be a parent you don't put yourself anywhere near the possibility, which is exactly what my now partner did when I told him that I was sick of the pill after 30 years. He saw a GP that week for the snip.
I'm astounded that you can advocate that position. It's a simple biological fact that women have to be the ones to be pregnant and give birth. That gives us both huge power and huge danger. I really don't think a man being forced to cough up 18% of his post pension salary is really that big an ask in comparison but if he really can't contenance it, then yep, celibacy or snip. Tough.

Pump and dump is a disgusting phrase.

No we have access to termination should we choose not to have children. Unless you are ethically opposed to that for whatever reason there is no need for a woman to abstain from sex unlike men. Some people can say that’s unfair but that’s just biology.

That’s a bit of an oversimplification. The male pills in trial only reduced sperm count, not eliminated it. So not that good. And they stopped in phase two because the side effects being reported were depression and a few suicides occurred.

A pill that doesn’t stop sperm production and causes you to maybe kill your self is rightly being sent back for more development.

There are lots of things we really want that haven’t been developed by now. Like a cure for child leukaemia…or are you saying we can’t be bothered and are happy with children dying?

Sadly, you're probably right. I've often wished I was a lesbian.