Aibu to think we need to change the system? Too many men getting away with pump & dump!

[FamilyLife2point4]

Just that I suppose?
Im reading lots of threads about men getting away with sooo much in terms of creating a child. The system here in the UK seems flawed, CMS seem pretty incompetent, courts don’t / won’t enforce men to take on their fair share of parenting / childcare / finances involved in raising a child. Not to mention the emotional benefits for a child’s well-being and sense of belonging at having an active, present, safe father, (whether the parents are together or not).

From what I read, some other countries have far fairer systems and absent parents are actively prosecuted. I am also aware this applies to the smaller minority of absent mothers vs single dads too, but I honestly don’t read anywhere near as many stories of that so this is more focussed on men (no offence intended).

I don’t believe this country will change on its own, but what will it take - those wronged parents (& children) plus supporters perhaps coming together and actively petitioning to change the law? Open to suggestions?

What if we could change the law - what would it look like?
I’m also thinking about this from the other perspective of women who withhold children from their dads (for the variety of wrong reasons - not because the dad is violent / abusive / danger to kids etc) and how a reform could also ensure equality all round.

For clarity my name is as it suggests, happily married with 2 kids, DH grafts hard, would try shirk housework if I let him away with it, but has always been hands on with kids - it just makes me sooo sad and mad at all the inequality I keep reading about.

YANBU - to think that if you do the crime, you do the time - provide for and raise those kids equally - the system needs reformed.

YABU - absent parents / Disney dads should continue to pump and dump kids as they please and we should do fuck all about the system that enables it.

It’s usually overwhelming men who abandon children even children they know are theirs

especially with SEN thrown in

so what consequences should the men face?

I worked as a teen in an org that advised people on benefits etc

lots of men who accountants etc professional jobs ever so quickly became labourers I was very naiive and confused and it wasn’t until someone pointed out it was so, they didn’t have to pay CM that way.

nothing new sadly

They do it more than once.

Completely. Some of the tales on here and situations I have come across in my own life just blow my mind and make me feel so sorry for women for have settled for such useless partners and fathers of their kids. Before someone starts I am not blaming women for men. Women need to be empowered to have their expectations of a partner and father enhanced, across all social classes. Men need to feel more social approbation for abandoning children or not paying for them

Pretty sure it's 'hump and dump' not 'pump and dump'

@Supersimkin2 your comment suggests that all feckless fathers are ones who only had unplanned children. Plenty of us got married after a long relationship, bought a house, had steady jobs, made a joint decision to have children, dad is great until X point when they get bored, have a mid life crisis, catch the eye of someone who is unencumbered by boring domestic crap and whoosh...... bye bye. Total stranger in their place who no longer prioritises their role as a parent and think their right to follow their "dream" whatever is paramount. Have a look on the relationship board. It's not about choosing well or seeing red flags in all cases. But regardless of any of that, once a child is here, it needs support.

I agree.

The idea of ‘holding men fully responsible’ is a nice one but ultimately plays into their hands doesn’t it? And since when has it ever worked?

Women need to protect themselves, we can’t just be passive bystanders at the mercy of whatever feckless bloke looks our way and then blame the poor outcome on ‘male behaviour’. Do I deserve to be burgled? No, but I still lock my doors at night. It’s the same principle.

Equally women need to take responsibility for contraception and stop ‘finding’ themselves pregnant and expecting the state to pick up the tab through housing benefit and universal credit. Contraception is free, highly reliable and women have a wide variety of choice. Use it.

Yes there will be lots of people saying BUT WHY SHOULDNT HE TAKE RESPONSIBILITY but I’ll refer you back to my second paragraph - men don’t get pregnant, so they’ll never have the incentive to be as careful as we do 🤷🏼‍♀️ no amount of ‘social conditioning’ will change that.

We need to protect ourselves and stop relying on men to be benevolent and noble and responsible. Ain’t gonna happen, don’t fall into their trap.

I thought this was going to be a tyre related thread.

You should always dispose of used tyres with care. Your local recycling centre will be able to advise you.

My theory is a lot of people secretly enjoy the autonomy and funding of state-paid parenting.

Mothers like the autonomy of losing a burdensome partner and the uk’s unusually generous financial support, fair enough.

Fathers like zero responsibility, no bills and the chance to spread their seed further. It’s a patriarchal dream.

But it can be shit for their DC. Not always, but missing a key caregiver in the most crucial life years helps no one.

Men’s rights never had it so good.

I think we could do a lot by increasing the financial contribution when children need childcare (perhaps by the financial contribution be calculated as half of childcare for both parents plus a contribution to living expenses based on days looked after) and making it so that a father who avoids their contribution by not working and not providing childcare can be sued by the mother for the amount plus penalty interest long after the child has left home. (There might need to be a lot more SS involvement around parenting standards, though, and that could be too difficult.)

The way contact seems to default to every other weekend plus one night a week when the kids are young then, when there are no longer significant child care costs, fathers increase their contact time is grossly unfair from a financial perspective. It totally puts the onus for day-to-day care, mental load and the necessary expenses on the mother while the father gets the free time and only, for the most part, elective costs.

There also seems to be no acknowledgement by the court of the financial cost to the mother if the father is inconsistent with contact. Having to always have a back up even though you don’t get credit for the time.

All these things make it much harder for women to develop sound financial support for themselves and their kids and I think it’s something that could be tackled with better laws and practices around child support.

We also need more affordable housing, because that’s an issue that means it can be really hard for parents who split up to continue to live near each other and coparent well when they are both keen to.

Mainly, though, I think it’s a cultural issue. We need people to be unimpressed if they find out a man has kids who they don’t see much. Shocked if they hear he tries to minimise or avoid paying. Pleased to spend time with a man who has his kids with him for the day. Happy to employ a single mother. Have similar expectations for men and women over taking time off for children who need them. And believe that men can be competent with kids and that just because they don’t do things exactly the same doesn’t mean it’s a bad enough to stop.

I tend to agree. The children are the only ones not getting what they need with the current position, beyond the financial side

I think the easiest solution would be to pay all women 20% more and men 20% less. That way it doesn’t matter to women if they are with a man or not, but it would make life a lot easier for men!

@Notbeinfunnehbut i didn’t want to mention poverty as I know the many mums who I read about on here and other platforms, would / do go without to give their kids the best they can - but they shouldn’t have too if there is a dad who could pay and doesn’t. Loving the fact it would put less strain on benefit system (that’s a potential selling point for reform).

@Echobelly i hear what you are saying - also think if the men folk are that worried about such things - they have an easy solution to wrap it first 😜going to guess they’ll not like that solution either ….,

Agreed., Revolting terminology.

The vast majority of arrears are deadbeats who resent paying not lost jobs.

I'd increase child support to a reasonable level - half of childcare costs etc. I'd also remove passports and driving licences. All assets should be assessed not just income and it should not be reduced for subsequent children. Jail time for repeat offenders who don't pay.

The current system is an absolute disgrace.

Well YABU will your choice of voting options.
I don't think anyone thinks the system works well atm. I rarely hear of a prosecution for non payment. Child maintenance should be treated the same as taxes and fines and non payment should ultimately result in maybe a prison sentence or a serious penalty. I'm not sure if I would want to force someone to have a relationship with a child, conversely I don't think you should be sble to dip in an out though quite so easily.
As for the actual amounts payed I think sometimes resident parents are unrealistic. Yes someone might only contribute say £200pcm however if they're paying £1000pcm for a home or second family then it just can't be upped. A 2 house family will always be more expensive. I also know resident parents who expect dad (it usually is) to live in a room or with their elderly parents if they're not so involved with the kids, but when they are involved they moan that the kids don't have a proper bedroom each. Financially they often can't do both.

I think ultimately we should be encouraging men to value family life more and avoiding unwanted and foolish pregnancies . This starts at school.

People could take more care who they have as partners and have children with, there is only times people can say 'he was a saint before we had 6 kids' type thing

And before people cry sexism it could work both both ways

This.

Pump and dump sounds like the men pumping a shit load of children into the system and dumping them there, for everyone else to take responsibility

@Supersimkin2 @Whatatimetobealivetoday this sounds v.interesting - the stats would be fascinating

How do you know what the vast majority of reasons are for being in arrears? Also I don’t think removing driving licenses is going to have a positive impact on people trying to earn a living is it

50/50 childcare for a start off.

So many threads on here, oh the dad only sees little Margot once every blue moon or whatever

Pump and dump is no worse than 'pregnant then screwed'

@Supersimkin2 no ide what you mean about the state paying for my life. I work full time as a single parent in a professional, graduate career. Only benefit I get is CB. And @WandaWonder see my earlier post re the fathers who actually are perfectly decent men and dads until they just aren't. I'm sorry if you don't believe me but plenty exist. Just because others also exist who are obviously shit from the start does not negate the existence of men like my ex. Stop blaming women for mens' inability to face up to their responsibilities.

Whatvan awful expression pump and dump is.

Yes the problem is there are just as many saying I don’t want to have my baby go to my ex overnight never mind 50/50. That’s the problem with blanket solutions, they don’t work.