Teachers - well paid, long holidays, gold-plated pension

[noblegiraffe]

I keep seeing this being trotted out as a reason to give teachers yet another real-terms pay cut.

Those who are going on about how great teachers have it, why have we got so many vacancies? Why is there such a shortage of teachers? It is really starting to bite in schools. My school has increased class sizes in maths and English, there are kids who have had a series of different supply teachers in core subjects since September, and A-level students who have had to teach themselves the syllabus in Y13 because they had no teacher at all. GCSE students have complained about their teacher not knowing what they are teaching because they've been roped in from another subject. We used to try to protect exam classes, but can't anymore.

Teaching vacancies are up. But the worst thing is that teacher trainees numbers have plummeted. The government has missed its recruitment targets for years, but the situation is getting much worse. Teacher recruitment for next year where schools generally compete for local trainees, which usually starts about now, will be really difficult and there will be lots more schools with unfilled spaces in September. Maths trainee numbers where I am are genuinely horrifying.

So, given the assertion that the private sector (the "real world") has it much worse and that teachers have a pretty cushy job with lots of perks, why isn't the private sector seeing a mass exodus into teaching?

Is it maybe not that cushy after all? Maybe the government actually needs to do something about it? Maybe those who think that a 5% rise is 'fair' need to have a rethink if they want their kids to actually have a teacher?

getintoteaching.education.gov.uk

And how is more pay going to take away “work load” !!

I’m guessing you are not a teacher @Jazz12

OMG we've looped back round to us being part timers. They don't even RTFT before sticking the boot in.

You are perfectly literate on this thread Pink - there are lots of different levels of training and education you know? Thank god I didn't just spend the rest of my life playing victim and claiming to be powerless to change anything and go round being bitter and angry at anyone with more money or qualifications than me.

That sounds really harsh but your utter contempt for my post that was purely trying to say look you're making a generalisation, I come from the same background and hurt as you do and there are single parents and people with healthcare conditions working part time propping up schools and claiming all teachers are rich and have wonderful lifestyles is offensive.

Minimum wage in 2022 was just under 20K a year. I was on 14K until September. In a minimum wage, low stress job I could have worked full time and been way better off. In reality I'd have worked the same amount of hours either way.

And if you can't see that decent staffing levels, specialised support and help to with your 'not being at all academic' as you put it and quality caring staff with time to, could have turned your situation around entirely then I despair.

Just the illogic of, I had a shit time and then not giving a shit about today's 15 year olds and the state of their education and support services blows my mind.

It's had the opposite effect on me. It's made me want to work with teenagers and advocate for them and fight to ensure education and camhs and social services get back to being functional at some point in the future.

When weren’t things shit in education?

Pink, I am sorry that your life has been tough. I'm sorry that you don't feel that you have options.

However, that is not really what this is all about. People in all sectors and all industries have it better than you do. Lots of them are striking in both public and private sectors. Most will already be on money you can only dream of.

But this isn't about comparing them with your situation. It's about putting a value on the things that we, as society, need to function.

I think nurses should be paid far, far more because of how vital they are and how much knowledge and training they have had. They are not easily and quickly replaceable. Same for TAs, who all need level 2 qualifications at least (level 3 being much more desirable).

Who do you think should earn enough money to be comfortable? Is it ok for surgeons to be on 6 figures? They are also unhappy, by the way, because their pensions are screwing them over. Would you rather they be paid far less because it's unfair on those without the skills and academic ability to make it? Does that make sense?

Minimum wage needs to increase. No one in a society like ours should be struggling. But unless you are going to champion a completely communist society, some people are going to earn more than others because of their value to society. Who should those people be?

Should we be cutting the pay (in real terms) of those doing vital jobs?

I did my PGCE as a single parent to an 18 month old with special needs. I am doing ok in comparison to some, but I have a tiny house, no money left at the end of the month and now have no way to increase my pay without becoming a school leader or leaving the profession.

My friends from my original degree course are now all on 6 figures. Bar none. That's fine. It was my choice to do something I felt was meaningful and worthwhile and that was the pay-off. I'm not asking for the same. I just don't want to be overworked in comparison and have less and less money to live on every year. I don't think that is unreasonable.

@Jazz12 - know you are on the wind up but how do you think it’s part time hours. Also can’t reuse my year 1 planning now I’m in year 5 ! Might cause a problem

For one it might help recruit and retain some more teachers so we’re not doing our own job and trying to cover for the lack of teachers.

But, one being on the table is better than neither being on the table. It would probably be impossible to get a national strike about workload.

Ok @Jazz12, I'll bite.

The workload that the Government (and Ofsted) can control are the demands that are directly responsible for the fact that we can't reuse planning year to year.

Look at the Gove curriculum, for instance. Ed Secs seem to love making sweeping educational changes to make their mark, which turns everyone's world upside down.

Ofsted criteria changes regularly, which means planning needs to reflect the new demands. So it all needs to be done again.

Plus, although you might have the bare bones of a lesson on - say - fronted adverbials (?!) from a couple of years ago, you may now have a class that is not as able as the year before, so it needs breaking down into other steps. You also have a non-verbal child with ASD, a partially sighted one who needs resources presented in a totally different way, group of high flyers who needs pushing and extra challenge activities preparing...

No class is the same. We don't plan one lesson, we plan 3/4 simultaneously to meet the needs of the class.

Then you have to evidence the learning, which takes up as much time. You can't do that one year and bank it for the next.

No, pay does not help with that workload, but it goes a way to reflecting the reality of what teachers do. It makes people feel valued, so they are less likely to leave (along with all their planning and ideas from previous years). Keeping staff is essential for reducing the strain on the remaining teachers. More TAs (who are adequately paid) reduces stress and workload too.

It is a shame the TAs in England didn't manage to pass the threshold for a strike. We need them standing with us because a lot of this is about them.

@noblegiraffe @lifeissweet @Italiandreams save your time and energy by ignoring @Jazz12 . There is absolutely NOTHING genuine about her question as I have seen her posts on other threads - she just goads and pretends to be ignorant.

If posters cannot see that increasing the salary to reflect the time and effort required to do a role will lead to increased retention which will mean a better workload and work-life balance, I'm not convinced it is worth engaging with them.

FWIW I am not a teacher and nor do I work in public sector now - I am one of those that left a NHS role after being increasingly fed up with the poor conditions and treatment. So when people keep saying if you don't like it leave - that is what we are all doing. And almost 2 years on, a colleague also quit, our old roles are still being covered by temporary staff with others who were already overworked taking on the management responsibilities. No prizes for guessing how long until they also quit and even more expensive temp staff are used to cover the basics. Funnily enough, the same situation is happening in teaching only there aren't expensive temp staff so it is unqualified staff filling gaps.

No you're not "genuinely asking to understand"

I know Jazz isn’t posting in the spirit of genuine understanding but I saw a clip of Jonathan Gullis (🤮) being interviewed on GB News (🤮) where he was making the exact same point that teachers are complaining about workload but striking about pay.

The government is addressing neither. If we came out of these negotiations with no improved pay offer but significant inroads made into workload (which would include funding the pay rise, btw), then I’m sure teachers would be happy with that.

Yes we are. Unfortunately though not enough TAs in England bothered to vote in the recent ballot so we could not strike. I believe that was not the case in Wales.
it is not up to my colleagues how much I am paid- that is set by the council and ultimately the government. The government has said repeatedly that it wants to get rid of TAs- by forcing many of them to leave it is succeeding. Many schools- including mine- do not replace the ones who have left.

Not a teacher but I can see that it’s intense and can totally see how teachers burn out. ‘Performing’ every day to the class, ‘customer servicing’ parents. When you are on your 15th nativity and 24th summer fair, it must get to seem like a treadmill. Not sure how you can get around that without extending the school terms.

Big problem seems to be that NQT is tough and lower pay. I would like to see teachers, not having to pay fees. I don’t think nurses or drs should either. Other big problems is I get the impression that schools are reluctant to move or promote quickly up the salary scales due to budget constraints. Annoying as the top of the scale seems to be what sticks in the public mind.

the elephant in the room - or maybe the solution in the corner - seems to be the pension. At around 24% employer contributions that is massive. The salary is not so diminutive that it cancels this out. I don’t get the impression that teachers appreciate quite how big and costly this is. It drives down salary increases as any budget has to be able to accommodate the increased pension contribution too. Private sector (and by this I mean blue chip, big responsible employers) talk about reward packages to raise visibility of costs. A package is salary, pension, holiday, sick pay and any other benefits. Some have an envelope for pension meaning that the employee can take some of that sum as cash to boost their salary. I think I recall that, in the period when it’s said that teacher salaries went down relative to inflation, the employer pension contribution went up from 19% to 24%? That was the trade off for not getting bigger salary increases? Apologies if I have this wrong. Anyhow, pensions are ‘jam tomorrow’. Maybe some structural changes are needed to release more ‘jam today’.

The pension sounds great and it definitely would be if you were able to afford to pay into it for the whole of your career and your career actually started at 21 and continued to 65. The reality is increasingly few teachers are making it to retirement.

Very many, women predominantly and it's a predominantly female profession in some areas of education, end up having to go part time to be able to cope with the demands on top of childcare - that comes with the double whammy of being on low pay and pension contributions and the fact that schools are often very reluctant to let part timers cross threshold to the upper pay scale and won't promote them or give them responsibilities about which they are stunningly open and make no bones about.

People who develop health conditions and find their employers to be completely inflexible and sometimes totally unreasonable and refusing any reasonable adjustments go very part time or leave completely. Many burn out and leave, some return 5 or 10 years later but only part time because they know what it did to them before and they've only just built up the courage to try again.

The pension is excellent on paper but you need to look at the actual shelf life of teachers and what career average pensions actually equate to if you have 'career breaks' (aka nervous breakdowns) or become only fit to work very part time or take time out with young children and return part time etc.

I have never in my entire career seen a teacher make it to retirement age.

You write fluently and coherently. You may be overestimating your struggle with basic literacy. (I’ve worked for years helping people to overcome problems with English and maths. It only needs a short piece of writing to flag up issues. Many of these people have suffered from anxiety as well, but that can be helped with medication and mentoring.). You’re already working, so you can hold down a job. Why not make it a more fulfilling one?
As I said in an earlier post, there are routes to better qualifications and employment via many providers, your local FE college being probably the best place to start. There are also a number of free online initial assessments in English and maths such as these via the Prince’s Trust (you don’t have to be a young person to access them).

www.princes-trust.org.uk/help-for-young-people/get-job/boost-your-confidence/team-online-delivery-partners/literacy-language-numeracy/online-providers-of-english-and-maths-assessment-tools

You might be surprised at the ability you have. I wouldn’t be, because I’m a teacher, and I know that so many people underestimate their potential and are held back as a result.

I’m a teacher. Been teaching for 10 years, at the top of the pay scale.

I wasn’t “lucky” to become a teacher - I had to work really, really hard at school to get the grades I needed. I had to work my way through uni and survived on £20/week, my parents were both carers and couldn’t pay the top up between my loan and living costs, so I have a massive loan, and I had to work 16 hours per week on top of my (very demanding) degree.

We are a two income household, although my partner earns significantly less than I do as he also left school at 15 with little in the way of qualification - although he was able to work his way up in his place of employment.

We live in a 2 bedroom ex council house, and can’t afford to move. We need a new boiler, new windows, a new door, and we can’t afford to replace them.

We have one car.

We have a 6 year age gap between our kids because we couldn’t afford to take maternity leave any sooner.

We have done 1 foreign family holiday since becoming parents - and could only afford to do that by taking my eldest out of school during my maternity leave, so we probably won’t be away again for many years.

So please, again, tell us all about the lives we live.

Oh, and I work 30 hours per week on a 21 hours contract - I’d actually be better off working 30 hours per week on minimum wage.

@swallowedAfly interesting to hear your view re: the pension. Some people may leave teaching early because the pension enables that where as in other professions the option to leave just isn’t there at all when you’ve been on a 3% employer contribution and even that wasn’t compulsory until recently. I’m not saying that teachers don’t deserve an early retirement or understand why you can’t teach for that many years because getting from 22 to 65/66 teaching is a giant ask. 40 plus years in any profession is a lot.

The pressure on women isn’t great to hear and being blatant about blocking their careers. I think what put me off teaching was the aspect of it being a small world - a poor head or manager can exert a huge influence on you and there’s not much recourse to a second opinion I imagine, especially in a primary school. Sounds like a lot of bullying goes on although I also see similar with blue chip appraisals designed to create churn of staff. Not right in either scenario.

anyhow, big picture, seems to me like some restructuring of the package is needed.

@GinClassHeroes I support teachers striking. But you do not mention your wage, I reckon you are either on £38,820 or £43,685 pro rata. So you are better paid than most people and much better paid than I am.
I am not keen on the poverty pleading by teachers. There are real issues with teachers terms and conditions, but lets not pretend they are all one step away from the foodbank.

I think to view the teachers pension as anything other than an incredible return on investment is just not true. New scheme is no wwhere near as generous post 2015, however a CARE pension, index linked for life, is still a very very good pension when compared to a defined contribution pension.

As a PP noted, some Teachers decisions to retire early, is only made possible by the generous pension. So, some people in equally as un agreable jobs, are unable to finish working due to insufficient provision.

I reckon you are either on £38,820 or £43,685 pro rata

I see the myth of teaching being a “part time” job is still being perpetrated by people with little understanding of employment contracts and unaware that there exists no legal or practical definition of either full time or part time work.

@borntobequiet I understand that totally. But the person said they officially worked 3 days a week so the salary is pro ratad. She said she works more hours than that though.

I appreciate the salary is high, but most teachers who are parents simply can’t work full-time, because full time is 50+ hours.

Nobody said teachers are one step off using food banks, but I don’t think that should really be where we set the bar - shouldn’t teachers be able to enjoy a “good” standard of living - financially speaking? They have made sacrifices to get to where they are - time studying, being saddled with ridiculous student debts, and so on. They have gone to uni for 4+ years (normally at least 5) so I don’t think it’s fair to expect them to be okay with only being moderately better off than an unskilled labour based job employee.

I was replying to the point specifically that teachers all have fancy houses, multiple holidays abroad, loads of kids, horses, etc - the people with those things are most certainly not people who come from a working class background and work their asses off to become a teacher. That’s generational wealth.

I think some people on lower incomes look at a teachers salary and see that it is 2/3 times higher than their own, and think that means they have 3x as much disposable income; but it really doesn’t, because we have to pay things like student loans, more tax, more NI, and so on.

You also can’t compare someone working 21 hours in retail to someone working 21 hours in teaching, because the retail worker would work 21 hours and go home. The teacher works significantly more than that - I personally do around 10 hours a day, which is NOT unusual - in fact, I’d say I’m on the lower end of the spectrum.

Its all about the squeezed middle - teachers earn just enough to get by without relying on top up benefits; but they wouldn’t be any worse off by moving to a lower paid job.

except that you don't