Teachers - well paid, long holidays, gold-plated pension

[noblegiraffe]

I keep seeing this being trotted out as a reason to give teachers yet another real-terms pay cut.

Those who are going on about how great teachers have it, why have we got so many vacancies? Why is there such a shortage of teachers? It is really starting to bite in schools. My school has increased class sizes in maths and English, there are kids who have had a series of different supply teachers in core subjects since September, and A-level students who have had to teach themselves the syllabus in Y13 because they had no teacher at all. GCSE students have complained about their teacher not knowing what they are teaching because they've been roped in from another subject. We used to try to protect exam classes, but can't anymore.

Teaching vacancies are up. But the worst thing is that teacher trainees numbers have plummeted. The government has missed its recruitment targets for years, but the situation is getting much worse. Teacher recruitment for next year where schools generally compete for local trainees, which usually starts about now, will be really difficult and there will be lots more schools with unfilled spaces in September. Maths trainee numbers where I am are genuinely horrifying.

So, given the assertion that the private sector (the "real world") has it much worse and that teachers have a pretty cushy job with lots of perks, why isn't the private sector seeing a mass exodus into teaching?

Is it maybe not that cushy after all? Maybe the government actually needs to do something about it? Maybe those who think that a 5% rise is 'fair' need to have a rethink if they want their kids to actually have a teacher?

getintoteaching.education.gov.uk

You've answered my question quite clearly.

Oh, give it up, Clav, ffs!

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Unfortunately for a lot of parents, as long as the kids can go to school they’re not bothered about anything else. Quality of education, working conditions, class sizes aren’t of any interest (or the teachers should just be overcoming these problems, somehow). The only thing that gets them involved is school closures, and even then all they do then is shout at teachers. Nothing actually useful, like campaigning for better for their children and those educating them. Much easier to just shout at teachers.

I’m afraid I don’t see this changing any time soon. The majority are just too self-interested, and by the time they see the issue it’ll be too late.

swallowedAfly
You've answered my question quite clearly

Your first answer implied that you had no choice but to work through the summer holidays - and then you said you didn't actually work during August.

BlackFriday
Oh, give it up, Clav, ffs!

I am not the one claiming that most teachers work throughout their summer holidays.

People understand a shortage of nurses = longer waits/busier wards. They understand that a shortage of police officers means fewer crimes being investigated properly.

What they don’t seem to understand is that a shortage of teachers means your kid doesn’t have a teacher. Not a permanent, properly qualified one.

They assume that because someone is stood in front of the class, it must be a teacher and everything is fine.

Except it’s not. Ask your child how many supply teachers they have because their proper teacher is off or quit. How many cover lessons (that’s not a taught lesson, that is being sat in a room while an adult ‘supervises’ them doing a worksheet, and kids know it’s a doss lesson). Kids in primary school being taught by a TA instead of a teacher.

Kids deserve better.

Exactly.

This academic year we no longer have cover supervisors. The admin staff are now covering lessons. It is not just a “one off”, admin staff at my school are covering long term absences.

You realise that a lot of the private sector don’t just work 37 hour weeks right? To start with, my contracted hours in the private sector is 40 hours a week. Like many professionals I do more than my contracted hours, anything from 2-16 extra hours per week depending on what’s needed. It’s not just teachers that have to work more than their hours each week!

So that 42 hours compared to 47 for teachers is actually more like 50 hours compared to the teachers 47.

It bears repeating for those hard if comprehension on this thread that the only thing teachers are legally allowed to strike on is pay. So to all those moaning it's offensive that is the reason the gov brought in that law. To make the general public think its about pay. No teacher I know thinks they are paid too little. It's about workload and conditions but the only strike ballot that is legal is pay.

Plus about pay rises not actually being paid by the gov hut taken from budgets effectively meaning your kids miss out on resources, trips, dt equipment, ta's etc as the school has to use that money to pay their staff the extra that gov agree but don't fund.

@LiquoriceAllsorts2 I have literally produced reports for Prime Minister’s Questions and briefed the Home Secretary face to face in my old career with less stress and scrutiny than the data drops for the suburban year one class I taught faced! The pressure placed upon teachers is ridiculous. They are picked apart and monitored like I simply could not believe. A significant proportion of teachers have worked in another profession first and want to “make a difference”. Sadly, no amount of money shall ever convince me to return which is a shame as I was bloody good and loved the children…

This is what I struggle with Teachers I know, they can not seem to comprehend that us private sector workers, actually do above and beyond. I would say my working week is closer to 60 hours. Saturday / Sunday phone calls, email replies. Calls take on holiday etc..

Lots of comments seem to think that we do 40 hours a week, phone off, then feet up.

Teachers do an incredible job, I for one could not do it, however I could not also be a nurse or deep sea diver.

I think the issue lies, that some, not all, teachers, do not understand that what they have as a package is pretty solid. The pension is incredbile in real terms. I can not comment on the working conditions, however, if interactions with kids locally is anything to go by, it must be very challenging.

If teachers accepted that they have quite a nice remuneration package, and relatively decent holidays, people would relate to them more. However, the ' We work every day of our holiday and our pensions are rubbish' gang, only help to alienate the public.

It is a tough gig, but not the ony tough one out there.

Several reasons - one being that children now find it difficult to concentrate, They watch a lot of TV, and play a lot of computer games. If the teacher can't enthuse them with an interest in the topic then they won't want to know more and learn to push themselves through the boring bits. Many parents ferry their children to after school clubs/ sports etc - but don't always encourage them to sit and read, or do a jigsaw, or paint. Something quiet that they can immerse themselves in and learn how to concentrate.

Plus - there are few things more soul destroying (for the teacher) than to have to deliver exactly the same talk with exactly the same materials, year upon year to row after row of increasingly bored children.

And actually - learning to count can be very interesting if it's done properly, with eager, enthusiastic children in a stimulating environment with a teacher who isn't strung out trying to stop half the kids disrupting the lesson.

One of the marks of a good teacher is that they can even persuade children to work at the "boring" bits, but even the best of teachers can't teach an unruly class - and it only takes one disruptive pupil to destroy it for the rest

Yup that about sums it up. It’s so sad isn’t it because it could be such a rewarding career otherwise.
Picked apart is exactly right.

@Overthebow How many times do you come across people
Accusing you (and your colleagues) of "only" working 40 hours a week, when you are putting in anything up to 16 hours over that? How many people persist in telling you what they "think" you do, as opposed to what you know you do?
Annoying, isn't it

It’s not about the wage, or at least not directly, to me. It’s the unrealistic expectations, very long hours and how that affects your private life and therefore how many of those hours are unpaid.
For every week of holiday I get I work 9-5 either 3 or 4 of those days. Factored in with the 10-5 I work on one of the weekend days every week, my husband who works in the private sector gets more actual days off than me, just not on paper.
I am now a mum of two under two and have made the decision that I will be handing in my notice before the end of the year. I just cannot sustain doing my job to a satisfactory standard and also spend any time with my family. I’m very sad about this as I love the teaching and the kids but all the rest has, year on year made it a little bit worse. I worry about my department and pupils as the last two vacancies we have had have been filled with supply staff or even non specialists (which is not good as it’s languages) - this is one of the best schools in the area. But, I haven’t even handed in my notice yet and I feel like a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulder! I felt sick constantly at the thought of putting both my children in nursery for 11 hours a day, 5 days a week and then ignoring them for one day at the weekend and in the holidays too. More pay would not tempt me to stay. The only thing that would, is realistic working hours which would mean more time within school to mark, plan, call parents (a much much bigger part of the job that it was 10 years ago), fill in the paperwork, write lots of pointless documents etc.

Most teachers that I know that are striking aren’t doing so over pay, it’s to make the job more appealing again or realistically more sustainable and manageable. Many schools are already in the position where they cannot provide adequately for pupils; huge class sizes, no teaching assistants, a stream of cover teachers and non specialists teaching. And the qualified staff are so burnt out that it’s hard to be your best! Our children deserve better!

Remember that

a) academies do not have to follow teacher payscales and many schools are now part of academy trusts,

b) no school is obliged to move a teacher up on the payscale of they don't want to,

c) after reaching the top of the 9 levels a teacher's pay is capped unless they want to move into leadership. Teachers who enjoy being classroom teachers can remain for decades on the same pay. (I reached the top after 8 years and for the past 6 have not had an incremental pay rise.)

I am a primary school TA and I would echo what some have already said. I have worked in the same school for the last 10 years and can honestly say the decline in behaviour and the increase in the numbers of children with additional needs is astonishing. I am not surprised teachers are leaving and schools are struggling to recruit replacements.
Much of the decline in pupil behaviour can be attributed to one thing-poor parenting. Many of the children with poor behaviour mirror the behaviour seen at home and will think nothing of hitting/punching/slapping each other as that is their normal. They think nothing of insulting and swearing at teachers because they know that there is really very little that we can do other than keep them in at break and lunchtimes. Parents are told but don’t care or will try and justify the poor behaviour. None of these children have any aspirations other than becoming an influencer or YouTuber. The parents don’t have any aspirations for their children either. Most of these kids will follow in their parents footsteps and have children at a young age and so the merry go round continues. The number of SEN children we are expected to deal with in a mainstream class is also increasing. One of our classes has 4 children with extreme needs. There are no available special school places so we have children who cannot cope and should not be expected to cope in a mainstream class. The teachers are expected to plan and cater for all of these children as well as the others in the class as well. Sadly, striking about pay will not change any of this but what else are the teachers supposed to do. The only other option is a work to rule.

@KatherineofGaunt the strike is unlikely to make any difference then. Academies can and will just offer a pay scale down.

@KatherineofGaunt Although I agree with most of your points, most people do not get increments,. They get a percentage wage increase. That is what people at the top of the increments still get.

Easy question and answer.

Feel valued? You’ll go above and beyond.

If you want your children’s teachers to help them excel then you need to make them feel valued. I can turn up with no planning and blah a lesson day in, day out, some generic shite I for from the internet. Good for me. Not for your your kids.

My children will be the fair under austerity okay as they have two teacher parents so we know how to play the system. Private school pupils will also fair okay. I’m striking on behalf of the child I was who grew up in poverty and in this climate would have had no future.

I love these sorts of comments.

In the 80s there very very few recognised forms of SEND, if the SEND was recognised the pupils were sent to the "special schools", those that still didn't meet the requirements of the schools were then given classes about life skills.

There was no requirement of the schools to meet any type of criteria as league tables and Ofsted didn't really exist.

You can try and compare the two but it isn't going to work.

I don’t doubt that teaching is a very hard job and I have a lot of respect for teachers and do believe that they should be well paid. But pretty often if a non teacher says to a teacher that they have had a hard/long/stressful/tiring day at work you get a response of how you can’t possibly understand what a hard day is as your not a teacher. This attitude is not great for maintaining sympathy; it’s important teachers also understand that other jobs can also be hard/ other people can have a bad day and I think this attitude explains a bit about why people complain about teachers.

But if it were paid well enough, there wouldn't be teacher shortages in large areas of the country. And there wouldn't be a situation where schools and training providers have to employ / pass pretty much anyone.

Supply and demand.

But pretty often if a non teacher says to a teacher that they have had a hard/long/stressful/tiring day at work you get a response of how you can’t possibly understand what a hard day is as your not a teacher.

Strange the only times that I have seen this is when people post about how teachers say this,
I've not seen any teacher post that they have it harder than anyone else.
In fact its normally that teachers only post that its a hard job when people post about how easy teachers have it.;

Of course then those people post about how much teacher whinge.