Teachers - well paid, long holidays, gold-plated pension

[noblegiraffe]

I keep seeing this being trotted out as a reason to give teachers yet another real-terms pay cut.

Those who are going on about how great teachers have it, why have we got so many vacancies? Why is there such a shortage of teachers? It is really starting to bite in schools. My school has increased class sizes in maths and English, there are kids who have had a series of different supply teachers in core subjects since September, and A-level students who have had to teach themselves the syllabus in Y13 because they had no teacher at all. GCSE students have complained about their teacher not knowing what they are teaching because they've been roped in from another subject. We used to try to protect exam classes, but can't anymore.

Teaching vacancies are up. But the worst thing is that teacher trainees numbers have plummeted. The government has missed its recruitment targets for years, but the situation is getting much worse. Teacher recruitment for next year where schools generally compete for local trainees, which usually starts about now, will be really difficult and there will be lots more schools with unfilled spaces in September. Maths trainee numbers where I am are genuinely horrifying.

So, given the assertion that the private sector (the "real world") has it much worse and that teachers have a pretty cushy job with lots of perks, why isn't the private sector seeing a mass exodus into teaching?

Is it maybe not that cushy after all? Maybe the government actually needs to do something about it? Maybe those who think that a 5% rise is 'fair' need to have a rethink if they want their kids to actually have a teacher?

getintoteaching.education.gov.uk

It does feel a bit like saying ‘in my day, ambulances were mostly just about urgent patient transport to hospital in emergencies, like I remember having when I fell and broke my leg, so what paramedics need to solve the ambulance workers’ dispute is just a standardised script for handing over a patient quickly at the hospital’ - ignoring the changes in the job, developments in technology and approach, systemic issues such as overcrowded A and E and difficulty accessing GPs…..

Some of the complaints my DP has to deal with are ridiculous. Last year a pupil who had permission to walk home was apparently taking a detour to go to the sweet shop with their friends and their parents didn't like it. Yet somehow it was my DP's fault. He should be making sure they didn't go to the shop. When he pointed out to the parents their child was their responsibility outside school hours and they needed to enforce their go-straight-home rule, they insisted it was part of his job to make sure their DC got home safely. 🙄

I think the really difficult complaints are the ones that are totally reasonable - every child in the classroom I described has a right to an education and to have their needs met, and most will be fully documented - but where the needs cannot possibly all be met by a single teacher in a class of 32. Those ones are soul destroying to dedicated teachers.

@cantkeepawayforever I agree. A friend has a class of 33 where all but 5 have some kind of additional needs - not necessarily SEN, often either emotional needs or support due to home circumstances. And she’s the only adult in the room. Every lesson she gets between 2-10 parents complaining. It’s being set up for failure.

Interesting. Let's allow teacher to, er, teach, not be an extension of the police, parking wardens, social services, marriage/relationship guidance, referees in on line spats between parents and/or pupils, free child minders, the list could be enormous.

Emails sent by parents will only be dealt with in this 9-5 slot, if a parent wants to discuss something they make an appointment to suit the teacher, just like with the doctor, dentist etc.
I think it would suit a lot of teachers far better than the amount of time they have to waste on non-teaching things.

Again this is confused thinking. How does increasing the pay resolve these issues? Illogical.

Start by ignoring the complaining parents, let Senior Management deal with them, if it's Primary/Infant don't be available at the end of the day.

Yep, you're not a primary teacher are you? None of those suggestions are feasible.
What do you think that the senior management will do? They'll go straight to the teacher to demand and explanation and tell the to deal with it. That's what they'll do. And refuse to be available at the end of the day? That's directed time and the teacher has to be available.

I wouldn't be a teacher for love nor money (and I'm an A&E nurse 😅😅😅)

@Changechangechanging - I would be fine with a proscribed lesson for my kids. It’s not ideal, but it’s not ideal with the current situation.

I think having a fixed curriculum that is also accessible online may help. Let’s say some kids have a problem with fractions or missed reading a section of a book - they could access the missed lesson online, look on forums about it (where kids could ask questions). Common questions are upvoted - so the most common appear near the top. It’s how a lot of online moocs work - secondary kids would benefit from learning the format.

if teachers want to plan a special lesson/recap, maybe there can be a couple of weeks unplanned in the fixed curriculum to account for this??

I have a lot of sympathy with teachers and it is probably not this simple, but at the very least a standard fully online curriculum would benefit those kids who miss school due to illness and be a fallback for if something like the pandemic happens again.

Teaching should be an attractive career, it should attract people who want families / need to be the person at home for holidays etc.
once you lose the good hours and holidays (which is where we are), what’s left?

@JangolinaPitt but it’s a vicious circle. If we can’t get or retain staff then there’s no continuity for classes so behaviour gets worse and support is thinly spread which means we’re even less likely to get staff.

It needs a salary that reflects the time and qualifications to be a teacher to get people ‘in the door’ so to speak. And much improved conditions to keep them there.

Namenic - pretty much exactly this was provided during the pandemic, particularly the second lockdown.

I have not seen many posters saying ‘Oh, my school provided links to Oak Academy, supplemented from worksheets from White Rose Maths, and I thought it was perfect, they made really good progress’.

Yes, ime a few children did do very well - often those who struggled in the mainstream classroom because of sensory overload / borderline or diagnosed ASD. As a mass approach for all?

@saraclara Quite!

They need to bring back schools to help children with learning disabilities and additional needs. There are too many in mainstream schools now and teachers and TA’s often can’t deal with them the numbers are so high.

I wouldn't go in to teaching for love nor money but this is because it is a job I would not enjoy rsther than the pay or conditions.

I am interested in what teachers think their professional equivilents are in terms of salary and working hours. Many professionals will be working 40 - 50 hour weeks, law and medicine often more - but then they can go for much higher salaries in some areas of their profession.

I am a middle managent in a public body and it is completely normal for me to work 8.30am - 6.30pm or much longer, some weekend or evening work is a frequent occurance. lunch is often a grabbed sandwich on the way to meetings. But to me the difference is I have some control over my workload and hours and importantly when I take holiday.

Being a secondary school teacher is exhausting.

I work a 60% timetable as otherwise I just would not be able to fit in the hours along with parenting my children.

The pay is poor. £43,685 maximum (outside London) for full time unless you want to start taking on even more responsibilities.

And all those holidays? Let's do some maths... A full time secondary teacher who does GCSE and A Level will work around 50+ hours a week in term time. In holidays it is exam marking and updating schemes of work, so about 5 hours a week average.

So in a total year that's 50 x 39 weeks + 5 x 13 weeks = 2015 hours a year.

A "normal" person works 47 weeks a year (assuming 5 weeks hol), so if we divide the teachers yearly working hours by 47, thats a 42 hours a week.

So a "normal" job will do 37 hours a week for £44k, and the equivalent teaching hours spread over 47 weeks are 42 hours for the same money. Absolutely no additional pay to reflect the bonkers term time hours that need to be worked.

And teachers in maths/science could certainly earn more than £44k in "normal" jobs.

It is a really tough career.

And don't even get me started on the budget of schools having to pay all the teaching salaries. If you have a school full of dedicated experienced teachers then that eats such a hole in the budget you struggle to pay for resources.

And then there's the amount of people leaving the career (crazy hours and poor pay) and the struggle to recruit...

Salaries aside, the government should directly pay all teaching salaries, and not penalise schools for having experienced teaching staff.

I left after 14 years. I am on lower pay now but probably more if I was paid per hour at school. I think teaching can be ok if you get your feet under the table at a decent school. I moved around a lot through personal circumstances and I’ve been the new teacher in some very challenging schools. Some schools are terrible places to work. Scrutiny, rude middle leaders, competitive back stabbing colleagues, abusive kids, unreasonable workloads and expectations of late nights etc.
The first school I ever worked in was lovely and I would still be there now if I hadn’t had to move location. I remember the head of dept sitting down with us with the after school commitment calendar and sharing it out so we weren’t doing late nights regularly. The last school I worked in there was an expectation nearly every week to stay until 8/ 9 pm for one thing or another and that was on top of meetings etc.

I agree but convincing parents they are the best setting for their DC is another matter. My teacher DP says parents can be in denial about their child's SEN, particularly in cultures where academic ability and achievement rank above all else. They sadly see it as something shameful, so they refuse to seek an ECHP that would give their DC additional help.

I think half the problem is Gen X and Xennials can no longer see the point in flogging themselves for no reward, especially in the south east. A 40k income as a single person is not enough to buy a home without a significant leg up from family or other.

This is why, despite working hard at university and in building a career, you're seeing more people decide the burn out isn't worth the reward. It's just not attractive to work in a senior/mid management level post any more. You get no help but equally can't do anything. So what's the point? It's not just teaching this affects but huge swathes of the public sector.

I don't know any full time worker who sticks to 37 hours a week 42+ is standard for many

I stick to 37 hours a week, but I earn much less than teachers. I earned less as support staff delivering workshops in schools, but refused to do any time over my contracted hours.

I'll bet my house that the vast majority of full-time workers (especially white collar workers) aren't physically working for 8.4 hours per day as standard.

If they are then either their employers need to increase their workforce or the employees need to get better at their jobs.

Fair enough...

I have taught for 10 years and worked for 10 years as an engineer. Most my friends are in non teaching jobs and all do probably a little over the contracted 37 but not more than 40 hours. It's generally a consistent amount every week so they can fit activities around the hours and once their day has ended, that's it for the day.

I have several friends in RL who are teachers, most seem to fit in sports, hobbies, weekends away, looking after their kids in the same way others working ft do. However it does look an incredibly demanding job and I support their right to strike over both pay, and the general state of education.