Teachers - well paid, long holidays, gold-plated pension

[noblegiraffe]

I keep seeing this being trotted out as a reason to give teachers yet another real-terms pay cut.

Those who are going on about how great teachers have it, why have we got so many vacancies? Why is there such a shortage of teachers? It is really starting to bite in schools. My school has increased class sizes in maths and English, there are kids who have had a series of different supply teachers in core subjects since September, and A-level students who have had to teach themselves the syllabus in Y13 because they had no teacher at all. GCSE students have complained about their teacher not knowing what they are teaching because they've been roped in from another subject. We used to try to protect exam classes, but can't anymore.

Teaching vacancies are up. But the worst thing is that teacher trainees numbers have plummeted. The government has missed its recruitment targets for years, but the situation is getting much worse. Teacher recruitment for next year where schools generally compete for local trainees, which usually starts about now, will be really difficult and there will be lots more schools with unfilled spaces in September. Maths trainee numbers where I am are genuinely horrifying.

So, given the assertion that the private sector (the "real world") has it much worse and that teachers have a pretty cushy job with lots of perks, why isn't the private sector seeing a mass exodus into teaching?

Is it maybe not that cushy after all? Maybe the government actually needs to do something about it? Maybe those who think that a 5% rise is 'fair' need to have a rethink if they want their kids to actually have a teacher?

getintoteaching.education.gov.uk

@Twillow
Decent education benefits the entire society. I have no idea why it’s not better funded

Because the UK has been government almost exclusively from the right the past 50 years. And most of the right in this same period have come to believe that paying into the community - NHS, schools, libraries, better roads and transport, public sector salaries etc - is nothing but an unfair drain on their personal wealth and happiness.

The post was why teachers are striking. Teachers who are striking are doing so in order that they don't have to quit a job they love due to the shocking pay. That should tell you something.

4 weeks per year would be the bare minimum, not standard, and would include bank holidays which is very rare. I've never worked in any job that gave anything like as low as that. Shelf stacking at lidl gives up to 34 days leave!
What world do you live in where you don't think "hours out of class time" aren't already used for marking...when do you think it gets done then?
Most teachers work well beyind 9-5pm already so a change to what you think is "standard" working hours would actually be easier for them. Plus you do know most schools start before 9am so not sure who you expect to be looking after the kids before the teachers rock up after their lie in in your new regime!

My DP says the lockdowns have definitely had an impact on behaviour, but a lack of parental boundaries is another. The other sad fact is some people just don't know how to parent. They expect teachers to instil discipline but don't follow it through at home so the kid rails against the teacher's authority, gets into trouble, the parent expects the school to deal with them, but doesn't impose boundaries or consequences for anything they do at home and so the cycle continues.

As for SEN, he agrees it appears as though there are more SEN children but really it's just that we are as a society are more aware. Those children would previously have been dismissed as being naughty. When I was at school, we had a separate annexe for them.

I don't think we do need to attract the brightest and the best necessarily. At this stage it'd a numbers thing. They need to be competent and be able to handle the pressure but the job needs to be made easier so more people can do it.

Exactly how I feel.

I would really love to give teaching a go, but can’t find a way that allows me to to do the training and afford to live. If there was any genuine way for me to train to be a teacher I would do it (I’m seriously considering trying to get a TA role to see the life from a staff perspective and then seeing if I can pull some strings to train as a teacher).

It’s a broken system where people are expected to work for free as part of training that they’re paying for(very similar to nursing I think). I wouldn’t mind it being a loan written off if you stick around or similar, but the cost of retraining is prohibitive when you’ve already got a mortgage etc (and could also be putting off new trainees straight from uni).

I get teachers do work hard and long and that the pay isn’t great, but I don’t think this is specific only to teaching. It’s a massive problem everywhere with salaries jobs (although personality wise I wonder if teachers are more susceptible to struggling to deal with excessive demands due to their nature to want to help? Not a criticism here, just an observation that the type of people who want to teach might care more generally than someone who gravitated towards a different industry).

@Firedgirl and I think @itsgettingweird mentioned a fixed proscribed curriculum?

I mean it’s not ideal, but in the current situation, isn’t this going to be a more efficient way to teach? You can still do differentiation - in fact, you may be able to deliver a bigger range of differentiated materials if done centrally - 4 sets of questions (though understandably this may not suit a particular class in terms of interest/culture etc).

I thought the pandemic was an excellent opportunity to develop 1 centralized curriculum to GCSE - with BBC delivering videos for each lesson. Videos and questions could be put on a website. This would help those who may not be able to attend school for health reasons. Teachers could use or not use the videos/material, mix-and-match; and when there is teacher absence, you could at least get a video developed by a subject specialist.

I thought some of the bbc sessions in the pandemic were good.

there are always going to be the people who say - if you don’t like it, then leave. These people should think about the amount is wasted in training new teachers who drop out after a couple of years; and also not complain when their child is just being babysat by a non-teacher in class due to vacancy situation.

That's nice, dear. Run along and play now, the grown-ups are talking.

It’s a broken system where people are expected to work for free as part of training

I posted the massive bursaries upthread that are still not enough to convince people to train.

Just an example for those who say teachers couldn't cut it in the 'real world' or who wonder why there are so many teaching vacancies despite bursaries for retraining etc.

I have 2 friends who retrained as teachers in the last few years, having previously worked in other industries. They'd both done some work experience in schools and were really passionate about educating young people. Both expected to have a lower salary than in their previous jobs but anticipated a fulfilling job and a better work/life balance (all those holidays etc). Both were back in their old jobs within 2 years. They found that they were not able to teach to the standard that they wanted to due to huge class sizes, limited equipment and resources, lack of support for children with additional needs etc. They were also verbally abused by pupils and parents. They were expected to stay after school to run catch up sessions etc for pupils, then do planning/marking etc late in to the evenings and at weekends and spent half their holidays preparing for the next term. Both quite quickly decided that they'd be better off in their old, better paid jobs where they were treated with respect, had their evenings and weekends with their families and could book time off whenever suited them (not just peak school holiday times). One of them has gone back part time with annualised hours so she gets more holiday time than teachers but still has higher pay and better working conditions.

I agree that pay is a big part of the terms and conditions so would like to see it increase. I do agree with the view that the problem with retention isnt just pay. I dont know at what point if pay people would stay though. Its a bit chicken and egg. My outsiders view is just having more staff and support layers would make the job better. But since they cant even fill the breaking point staff levels and most schools are in deficit, i cant see how they can say 'lets have classes of 24 max, then have a few float teacher who cover PPA and subject lead time, plus a specialist intervention teacher for msths and english and lets make sure everyone has a day a week to lead their subject if they are a subject lead. Lets create a solid career path to head. Its all just bare minimum staff, flat structure with no movement.

My DP retrained through Schools Direct and was paid a salary of around £24k for the year it took to become an ECT. A heck of a lot less than he was on, more than half, but he managed.

Thatcher (I still blame her for the rot that set in) claimed she wanted to get rid of all the excess red tape. But under Tory government there has been such a glut of middle and upper management and endless monitoring. If teachers were free to teach instead of endlessly providing eveidence of what they would teahc and did teach and performance targets, they would be mor einclined to stay in the profession. Teaching is quite an addictive vocation, even if the pay is poor. It's the shit suffocatng the core skill that has everyone leaving.

@lovelypidgeon They found that they were not able to teach to the standard that they wanted to due to...

Your post hits the nail on the head. The frustration and effect on a teacher's morale from the kinds of things you've listed is massive. Teaching is a vocational career, much like nursing - you don't enter it for the money, or the holidays but for the earnest will to make a difference, which has become nigh-on impossible. It's now just a case of holding back the storm

@noblegiraffe you assume we're English, we aren't, you assume there are no other elgibility criteria, maybe there are, you don't come across as a very nice person at all. Bugger off with your grievances, we all have our reasons for doing what we do, or not liking what we do. Its not a race to the bottom.

You could offer me £100k a year and I'd still never return to teaching. It's hell.

I haven’t read the full thread (it’s very long now!)

It’s tricky, I think in part the lack of people going into teaching is connected to how society and current students respect teachers. If children were brought up to have a lot respect for teachers and the work they do then hopefully we’d see less problems.

As a society we need teachers, good teachers, enough teachers, teachers from different backgrounds, all kinds of teachers. Having a good quality functioning education system is essential. I’m not sure how much the general public understand this.

These points aside, we do have recruitment issues for skilled/professional jobs in other industries. I’m an architect and It’s been very difficult to recruit anyone who is good, that isn’t a graduate for some years now and I know lots of other industries that are having similar issues. Hospitality in particular. Obviously the knock on impact on society is much less than it is in jobs like teaching and nursing. But it does point to a greater issue overall with recruitment in the U.K.

I do think with teaching the lack of flexibility goes a long way to making it less desirable. With flexi time and work from home being more standard in many jobs I have friends who are teachers who would love to have have this kind of flexibility.

I do also wonder how the unaffordable costs of childcare and lack of wrap around care in some areas impacts the profession.

The kids. It is great working with the kids.

There, now do you want to become a teacher?

I don't understand why it's not treated like a standard job. 4weeks leave per year, 9-5 hours. Non pupil time between semesters is used for planning, hours outside of class time used for marking.

What are you actually suggesting here? Teachers and pupils are in lessons from 9-5 every day and they will all have one week off at Xmas, 1 week off at Easter and a separate 2 x 1 week sometimes over the summer? No time off for anyone in between? When will the lessons be planned/marked?

Most teachers retire before 60; this might change but I haven't seen it change yet.

@Petros9 it's changed already. You seem woefully ill informed. Those under the new teachers pension scheme cannot draw their pension until they are 65.

But this is exactly my question - why can't we figure out what has changed to make the workload unsustainable and change it back?
Couple that with proper pay and you've got half a chance people will choose teaching as a career and crucially stay in for a long time

why can't we figure out what has changed to make the workload unsustainable and change it back?

Part of what has made workload unsustainable is the lack of staff. I mentioned larger class sizes in my OP. Workload is also created when you can't staff your department and someone needs to prepare work for the cover supervisors who won't plan or mark.

Lack of TAs to support SEN students, so that falls on teachers too.

That's before we get onto the huge amount of pastoral support required of teachers to prop up the lack of mental health services for children.

I'm still laughing at the 'Troops for Teachers' post, where just about the only thing the ex-military could really appreciate about teaching was not being shot at with live ammunition.

Although, give it time.

I would absolutely LOVE to be a teacher. I'm a fully qualified TA , lots of voluntary classroom experience , I've got a degree in English and a masters.

But

I'm disabled. I can't find a single university or training scheme that will allow me to do a PGCE part time. And realistically I could only work part time due to my health. Also, despite having two degrees, and a passion for English language, I need a maths GCSE to get onto the course. And I have dyscalcular. Seems ridiculous that I need a maths GCSE to teach English!.

Beautifully put.

That is EXACTLY how this government thinks.

A decent government would see that good education, good healthcare, good housing and good nutrition are vital to a good society.

However we don't have a decent government.