To think we’re in the foothills of World War 3?

[Letthecarhuntbegin]

The West is upping the ante supporting the Ukraine, but I can’t imagine Russia backing down. Surely this will just keep escalating over the coming months and years. The beginning of World War 3?

No no no and once again NO!

The next few big wars will be within Asia, among the various countries currently constituting Russia trying to rebuild various historical entities/ found new ones, imo. With some Indian, Pakistan, Iranian etc noses poking in and China at a distance. We would not need to be involved (so tell our politicians so!).

Russia has zip all to do with Britain or Western culture.

It is a society that has oppressed its people, killed its own people, sent them to camps, thrown difficult people out of windows, poisons it's perceived enemies, posts pictures of its leaders stripped to the waist for the benefit of those it's failed to educate, and a substantial percentage of the government are explicitly corrupt.

The fact it's got literature, ballet, beautiful music and an interesting cultural heritage and recently decided it would buy luxury products and MacDonalds means nothing.

The cruelty of the Russian elite is enormous. The fact that they stopped being the Soviet Union means nothing. The tyranny goes back centuries. A border shared does not make a shared culture.

You could have said similar about Germany too and probably many other countries over the last 400 years or so.

France butchered its Royal Family, as Russia did, look what we did to the Irish? the European slave trade? Spain in S.America, European butchery in N.America?

Russia is part of Europe and has a shared history... and one day, it will have to be allowed back into the international fold, that might take 10 years or 100.... just as we accepted Germany back after what it did before and during WW2.

Yes the Soviets never went away, 100% agree.

No I couldn't have said these things about the majority of Europe. The Soviet Union was just another tyranny on ordinary Russians. Their history is absolutely bleak. With the exception of North Korea I do not think there has been another nation that systemically for decades, as a matter of organization, oppressed their own people and killed then in the way the Russian elites have. It's unparalleled. Killing millions of their own people. Worse that Nazi Germany and their racial poison.

The West was very naive after the wall fell. They assumed that Russia would become like Western European nations. But they never did. We ignored that, and did business with their oligarchs. Shame on the West for its greed, shame on Russia for its cruelty to its own people.

Adam Curtis' documentary TraumaZone available on BBC i player is a brilliant piece of work documenting the complete and utter breakdown in the social fabric following the fall of communism and the chaos of Yeltsin years. It was into this vacuum the ruthless but effective operator Vladimir Putin brought brutal order into the chaos.

Russians seem to fear almost more than anything' societal collapse and have been through so much poverty and suffering that they are truly damaged people capable of damaging other people in ways unimaginable to us. The west took part in that looting spree along with the gangster oligarchs that followed the fall when with much greater statesmanship and less triumphalism we could have help to build a democratic state more like Germany today that rose out of the ashes of the Nazi defeat and Ukraine wouldn't be suffering as they are. But sadly we didn't - greed seems to trump reason.

Indeed there was a time when Russia actually wanted to join NATO but were rebuffed.They were always a gangster state following that and the hope seemed to be they would evolve into something more acceptable to western mores but following the absolute power of Putin and the time during covid for him to stew in isolation he has turned into the monster he is today. What comes after him I fear to contemplate but if he has any sense he will assinate his brutal Wagner henchman Yevgeny Prigozhin shortly before he has the chnace to seize the crown himself.

www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_1985%E2%80%931999:_TraumaZone

It's an interesting point @vera99 because the West did not repeat the wisdom it had shown after WW2 to ensure Germany became democratic. It had similar problems. We used our statecraft then but we left Russia alone. There were perhaps so many self serving reasons for that. I remember "the end of history" and other pompous ideas. We congratulated ourselves a lot, whereas the Soviet Union rotted from the inside. We didn't win, they failed.

Russia is a scary place.

15 months on from my OP and it’s not looking good is it :-(

It's strange how so many people assume the only escalations are nuclear / large scale "boots on the ground" with conscription etc

A lot of the war would be and already is waged online- cyber attacks, propaganda (look at Putin's intervention in Brexit) etc.

If you're talking about Iran and Israel, last nights attack was described by Iran as a retaliation ie precisely outlining that a regional war was to be avoided.

You have to factor in the utter stupidity of humanity. While the logical thing would be to de-escalate and save human lives, too often people are focused on saving their political careers and therefore need to be seen to be responding robustly and harshly. Let's hope the israelis take the former route even though it is human nature to blunder further into greater bloodshed.

Solaris500 · Today 12:11
You have to factor in the utter stupidity of humanity”

Yep. Had a conversation with our son yesterday, about what a fantastic place the world would be if everyone agreed to live and let live. All of those defence budgets could go instead on making the world a better place. But of course that would involve abandoning religious fervour, racism and politicians’ egos, which is never going to happen.

We wondered whether other mammals engage in wars. Could only think of chimps. Odd really, that the supposedly more “intelligent” creatures are the war-mongers.

We wondered whether other mammals engage in wars.

Most animals fight - for food, water, sex, territory.

You've never watched a wildlife documentary where one group/family invades another's? Meerkats, for example?

I think we're the only ones who kill for fun though.

Yes, but to the death?

Most mammals are wary of inflicting wounds because each knows it could be the death of them.

It's all men and their posturing. Someone's Mum needs to have a strong word.

But the problem is that most wars are caused by people having different views on what makes somewhere a fantastic place. You only have to look at the holiday destination threads on here to see how different people's opinions on a single city or country can be.

Eradication poverty, providing clean water and sanitation the world over would be a starting point I can’t imagine any society objecting to.

Humans aren't the only animal to engage in war like behaviour, it's been well documented in chimps too.

Dolphins and foxes are well known to kill for fun.

Yes of course! Not always, but often enough.

And Orcas whack seals to each other like tennis balls using their tails. "Playing" with them.

You should watch more wildlife documentaries.

I’m still hopeful - naive maybe - that the majority of nations want to avoid full scale world war.

Really? America view poverty as something that is the individuals fault and too much working to eradicate it is socialism.

Israel | Iran has the potential to escalate out of control. Why in 2024 civilisation hasn’t moved to put differences aside (stupid religious ideologies etc) and live a harmonious prosperous life is beyond me.

We could have it so fucking incredible and yet we deliberately insist and choose not to.

Madness.

Politicians.