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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To give you another reason nurses need a pay rise

41 replies

DownInTheDumpster · 23/01/2023 07:28

I work in one of the top universities for nursing in the UK but also globally recognised. The quality of potential students applying is so concerning this year. Not only are applications down over 30% but due to the fact that there is basically no incentive to be a nurse (stressful job, limited ceiling of pay, huge debt etc). We have had to scrap our usual rule of no acute mental health crises within 2 years of commencing the course (we have children’s nurses who have been admitted to psychiatric ICU within 3 months of starting the course).

Something needs to change. We used to have loads of bright young things keen to help others. We used to have experienced HCAs seconded from their trusts, or mothers who decided to be nurses later in life who trained with the bursary. Honestly in 3/4 years when these cohorts graduate we are really really screwed. Please support the strike. Please vote to remove fees for nurse training. Please vote against the tories.

OP posts:
TizzWoz · 23/01/2023 07:31

We have had to scrap our usual rule of no acute mental health crises within 2 years of commencing the course

Disgraceful of you to resort to that to put bums on seats.

CheeryCat · 23/01/2023 07:33

@DownInTheDumpster I can understand the need to lower entrance criteria such as grades but surely the fitness to practice criteria needs to be met. I’m shocked at what you are saying. How can (and why would) a university circumvent these?

Fairyliz · 23/01/2023 07:35

I think that’s less to do with the standard of applicants and more to do with the fact that it appears everyone’s MH has got worse.
Im not an expert but it’s clearly due to a multitude of factors, Covid lockdown, social media, society expectations etc.
DH worked a university for 30 years and there was a noticeable drop in his students MH over that time. Students appear to have absolutely no resilience at all.

SilverPeacock · 23/01/2023 07:43

Drop in standards and increased risk to patients/service users It is the inevitable outcome of everything which has gone on over the last 10 years. Under resourcing and the lack of any effective strategic plan.

Theluggage15 · 23/01/2023 07:46

A top university? Sounds shit if you drop criteria just so you can grab the cash. Because that’s what it’s about. Those criteria don’t matter anymore then?

ArianahX · 23/01/2023 07:47

I agree don't vote Tory & support the strikes; but as an HCSW on an acute ward what is the issue with nurses having MH illnesses?
I have a serious MH illness (schizoaffective) and work with patients successfully, ok only part time, but I'm not a danger to them.

nowwhherredowestay · 23/01/2023 07:48

If you think someone is a risk to children there is no way you're taking them on. I just don't believe you. And if you don't think someone is a risk to children then their mental health shouldn't be the thing stopping them. I've worked in mental health for years, I've had several colleagues in that time who've ended up in hospital for their mental health. I will honestly say they've been some of the best, safest hands for our patients.
I absolutely support more money for nurses and paid training but your dismissive attitude to those with mental health problems is uncomfortable

SnarkyBag · 23/01/2023 07:50

You’re scrapping criteria to make money even though you think the end result will be nurses not fit to practice and you think the only issue here is nursing pay?

Top, globally recognised uni? Yeah right!!

cravingtoblerone · 23/01/2023 07:56

A lot of people deliberately missing the point here.

The point is that nursing is no longer an attractive career option for young people and we are in a recruitment crisis where we can't possibly balance new entrants into the profession against those who are leaving in droves.

Whilst am not a die-hard Labour support and definitely have some issues with Starmer, he's right when he says it will take at least a decade to reverse the damage to the NHS....

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 23/01/2023 07:57

Thanks for taking on unsuitable people just to fill numbers. It will really help the NHS to have people who, if they scrape though, probably to the detriment of their own mental health, will likely go off sick and cost the NHS a fortune in sick pay and agency workers and ultimately put patients at risk.

WhatLikeItsHard · 23/01/2023 07:59

"We have had to scrap our usual rule of no acute mental health crises within 2 years of commencing the course (we have children’s nurses who have been admitted to psychiatric ICU within 3 months of starting the course)."

I did my nurse training through a well regarded University for nursing. It was a while ago, but I can't remember being asked about my mental health history. There were plenty of students (especially on the children's and mental health cohorts) who were open about having mental health problems. They had insight into being a patient and I don't think it's a bad thing. Nursing is indeed a very stressful job, and I think the majority of my friends from nurse training have all had some form of mental health issue caused by work stress.

What do you do if a student develops an acute mental health crisis for the first time while they are on the course? Kick them out?

DressingForRevenge · 23/01/2023 08:00

Excuse my ignorance - but do you have to charge tuition fees? Would it be possible for the university to waive/subsidise without a government mandate so that you actually can interest the best?

Nurses need paying more.

WhatLikeItsHard · 23/01/2023 08:04

Also, wouldn't such an arbitrary two year rule count as discrimination?

Redredrobingoesbobobbobin · 23/01/2023 08:09

This is awful. We had one of these nurses on placement with us, she was just over the two years and came to our busy busy MH team. She couldn’t hack it, got unwell, we spent so much time having to support her but fail her and liaise with the university. It makes more work for us, and contributes to an awful experience for the student, seemingly just so a uni can make money. Crap.

fairgame84 · 23/01/2023 08:11

To be fair it's universities like yours that are making the situation worse. We've had terrible students over the past year and it adds to our workload and to our stress. Some are clearly not cut out for nursing but we are pressured into passing them. If we refuse the university blames us. They then go to another placement where the same pressure is put on staff to pass them and somebody gives in and signs them off.

SilverGlitterBaubles · 23/01/2023 08:19

The most sensible thing to do would be to scrap nursing degrees altogether and make it more of an apprenticeship with training as it was in the past. I would have thought that nurses should have to go through some kind of screening to ensure they are fit to practice?

DressingForRevenge · 23/01/2023 08:19

Casting my mind back to 91 when I applied for nursing and I think Newport, Gwent was considered the “best”. Now all people seem to care about are the elusive “red bricks”.

Imagine how many top students would head to Gwent without fees! You wouldn’t even have to look at “poor” students, only those truly able - and in turn your institution would be known for training the very best with the best career progression. Self-perpetuating.

Toddlerteaplease · 23/01/2023 08:21

I wonder if you are from my local school of nursing?! The quality of nursing students has been appalling in the last few years. Obviously covid has really affected their education.
But we are now getting so
Many students with anxiety and mental health issues. I'm not unsympathetic, but if their panic attacks are so bad that they have an action plan. That states that they need to take time out in quiet room for a while. Then they are not going to cope on the wards. We have a ward full of sick children already, without adding to the workload.

Elsanore · 23/01/2023 08:27

I work in a similar role but in teacher training, not nursing. We are having similar absolutely shocking problems getting applicants and will be way under our target numbers for new teachers qualifying.

Regarding the lowering of the bar for mental health to enter teaching (similar to what you mention about nursing) we have similar but I'll add a bit of context about why. 1. Over emphasis on being inclusive and not discriminating against anyone- even if they clearly have a very concerning mental health problem that will make them unlikely to succeed. 2. So many young people disclose mental ill health and neurodiversity these days you'd have almost no one left if you had a strict limit for that. 3. Desperation to meet targets to keep DfE happy and to keep our teacher training institution going.

Patineur · 23/01/2023 08:30

As has been said, a lot of people are seizing on the MH issue to divert from the main point, namely that without at least a pay rise nursing will continue to be a profession that able students do not want to go into, which will be severely detrimental to all of us. Given the exodus from the NHS caused by Brexit, this has the potential to cause a real crisis.

SolitudeNotLoneliness · 23/01/2023 08:32

Why doesn't your uni scrap fees?

The bright young things rather than rack up tens of thousands of pounds of debt for a vocation, as a good nurse would see it as such, which for a role has shit pay, can walk into a private sector role with gcse or a levels, start earning, work they way up career progression fairly quick with no debt.

Certainly no vocation to such roles but can see the attraction.

MademoiselleTrunchbull · 23/01/2023 08:33

TBH, if I desperately needed medical assistance and had the choice between a bipolar nurse or no treatment at all I'd 100% opt for her help.

KILM · 23/01/2023 08:42

I'm confused - why are people saying 'why don't you waive the fees' - aren't uni's private institutions, or are nursing degrees all funded by the government but uni's choose to charge - I don't know how the structure works. I know that uni fees are overinflated but surely with something like nursing its an expensive course to run, or is that not the case...

Izzy24 · 23/01/2023 08:46

Nursing and midwifery students spend 50% of their time in placement where they work alongside their mentors undertaking practical tasks under supervision. They work hard and should not have to pay fees.

In 2014 when Hunt was in charge of the NHS he refused to accept the advice of the Pay Review Board and froze 🧑‍⚕️ pay - which stayed frozen for 7 years.

Students nurses and midwives need an immediate end to fees and a living wage while they train as they are actually working during this time.

This would enable many more people to undertake nurse/midwife education. If this means describing it as an apprenticeship so be it.

follyfoot37 · 23/01/2023 08:52

DownInTheDumpster · 23/01/2023 07:28

I work in one of the top universities for nursing in the UK but also globally recognised. The quality of potential students applying is so concerning this year. Not only are applications down over 30% but due to the fact that there is basically no incentive to be a nurse (stressful job, limited ceiling of pay, huge debt etc). We have had to scrap our usual rule of no acute mental health crises within 2 years of commencing the course (we have children’s nurses who have been admitted to psychiatric ICU within 3 months of starting the course).

Something needs to change. We used to have loads of bright young things keen to help others. We used to have experienced HCAs seconded from their trusts, or mothers who decided to be nurses later in life who trained with the bursary. Honestly in 3/4 years when these cohorts graduate we are really really screwed. Please support the strike. Please vote to remove fees for nurse training. Please vote against the tories.

The attrition rate for univerity nursing students is consistently 24%. It has been for the last decade and a half, and has remained the same from when a bursary was available and when not.

It's the half-arsed apprpoach to training that has caused the problems - no cohesion in academic/practical experience, no peer-support as students are scattered amongst several clinical placements, often not even doing the same topic, so don't get together over coffee to debrief/talk, no proper support/feedback etc
It is a nightmare.