To give you another reason nurses need a pay rise

[DownInTheDumpster]

I work in one of the top universities for nursing in the UK but also globally recognised. The quality of potential students applying is so concerning this year. Not only are applications down over 30% but due to the fact that there is basically no incentive to be a nurse (stressful job, limited ceiling of pay, huge debt etc). We have had to scrap our usual rule of no acute mental health crises within 2 years of commencing the course (we have children’s nurses who have been admitted to psychiatric ICU within 3 months of starting the course).

Something needs to change. We used to have loads of bright young things keen to help others. We used to have experienced HCAs seconded from their trusts, or mothers who decided to be nurses later in life who trained with the bursary. Honestly in 3/4 years when these cohorts graduate we are really really screwed. Please support the strike. Please vote to remove fees for nurse training. Please vote against the tories.

Interestingly, I do the same job but in Europe. Our last intake included an architect, a bank manager, an IT manager and someone who'd had a PR agency. Far more 'oldies' and a much higher proportion of men. No idea though for 23/24

We have had to scrap our usual rule of no acute mental health crises within 2 years of commencing the course (we have children’s nurses who have been admitted to psychiatric ICU within 3 months of starting the course).

Why do you have to lower the standards to fill seats? Is this safe? Surely they should just stay empty? Psychiatric ICU within three months sounds concerning (if this is true)

A 'top universities for nursing...? Which ones are listed as the 'top' for nursing - please don't name yours, just the names on the list
And the fact you are lowering standards would be of interest (i.e. be of concern) to a number of regulators

It's not the case that they will be in a ways dangerous to patients (although they could as could anyone experiencing a mental health crisis for the first time) but the course is incredibly stressful and full on and putting them in a position than can easily impact on their mental health when they have so recently been unwell is setting them up to fail imo

@follyfoot37 for this year the rankings show the top 5 as: KCL, university of Southampton, university of Manchester, university of Nottingham and university of Edinburgh.

For those saying why am I doing this, isn’t it better to have no one well firstly obviously it’s not my decision! I just have to implement the faculty decisions regarding interviewing and offering places. And secondly- I don’t know. If we only produce 25% of our target of nurses and this happens across higher education the nhs is 75% understaffed from the start (obviously this doesn’t translate completely but you get the idea). We need ‘bums on seats’ not just for the money but we have a duty to train nurses. And sadly we can’t scrap the fees as we no longer get the government money towards training them that we did before.

I also hear you regarding MH- we are and always have been inclusive. A huge proportion of the population and indeed nurses have MH problems and often they are wonderful nurses. However- much like I’d question whether someone needs more time to recover if they’d been in adult ICU just 2 months prior to starting an intensive course if someone has been under section and acutely mentally unwell it’s likely they need support to stabilise. Someone else asked what happens if a student mid course goes into crisis- that does happen and we have huge amounts of support. Students are offered support to interrupt their studies if needed, take time to get well and return when they are able. We don’t throw people off at the slightest MH issue.

The point is- nursing degree recruitment is dire. Because it’s a crap job with rubbish pay and a hard degree to do. We need to fix this or we will have no nurses soon.

I totally get this and don’t know what the answer is.

I work in social work and we’re incredibly understaffed. I’m mentoring someone at the moment who is so out of her depth for various reasons. One being having poor placements that have not prepped her for being a social worker in a local authority. There is also something about raising the bar in recruitment. We have recruited so many inexperienced staff in understaffed teams who also don’t drive in a relatively rural area. This puts so much extra pressure of experience staff, again, for several reasons.

Sorry to derail slightly but just wanted to say I empathise but don’t know what the answer is.

The point is- nursing degree recruitment is dire. Because it’s a crap job with rubbish pay and a hard degree to do. We need to fix this or we will have no nurses soon. This is the Pivotal Point the OP is making. Everything is is just noise. We can’t get nurses if you thing the NHS is bad now the iceberg is still ahead

@DownInTheDumpster much as I’m interested in this, I’d ask for your thread to be deleted. I think it’s identifiable in RL and posting this would surely be deemed misconduct… interesting but ill judged thread imo.

@CheeryCat I don’t think it would be misconduct- im not bringing anywhere into disrepute as I haven’t named our institution and there are no obvious examples of students.
To be honest someone needs to stick their head above the parapet and let the public know what the situation is like! We all worry about lack of nurses in practice but this is the future and it’s going to get a lot lot worse unless drastic action is taken.

That’s absolutely up to you, of course, @DownInTheDumpster but you’ve included identifying information about the institution over a number of posts and I actually disagree with you on the disrepute issue.

Basically @DownInTheDumpster I think that using Mumsnet as your chosen avenue for whistle blowing, when you work in a professional field is quite an odd (and misguided) decision.

I think the OP's point about needing to get more people interested in training as nurses is a good one, however the pay issue is not actually the main barrier, it's the cost of training. If universities stopped charging students fees for courses that are of direct benefit to the country, like nursing, more people would consider applying for them, and foreign students would be more likely to want to come to the UK. There could be a clause which requires people who've received free training to work for the NHS for say 20 years so they can't abuse the system - if they leave the NHS they have to pay back double or treble. You could enforce this for international students by confiscating their passports when they first arrive.

Lost interest at your prejudicial comment.

Many people suffering from MH issues are extremely “bright, young things”. Is it surprising that hundreds of thousands of youngsters have had problems coping with the isolation enforced in many by the past few years.

@Dotjones yes, a great idea for a way to encourage recruitment. Make a nursing career into a 20 year sentence! 🤣

Not as extreme but that is sort of how the NHS bursary works in Wales. I am a student nurse who has taken up the bursary in Wales- not that many people on my course have because you get less money to live on day to day than if you took student finance and people can't afford to do it if they also have childcare costs. But essentially the NHS pays the fees for the course and gives a bursary for living on, in exhange you have to work in wales in the role you trained in, for two years.
After two years you have 'paid back' the bursary money and can move away or stop working in the role if you want.
It is hard to live on as the bursary for living on only just covers my rent- so you have to work alongside to buy food and petrol etc but after the two years you gave no debt to pay back.
England used to have it I think but they scrapped it years ago.

There's nothing identifying at all! And even if there was how would they find out who posted it?