Page 10 | AIBU to feel that teachers shouldn't really be striking?

Pinky1011 · 2023-01-23T02:47:10+00:00

They have 3 months PAID holidays only work 9-4pm, no dangerous or really bad working conditions, great job security, good pensions, They had pay rises last year up to 8%!!! I work in the private sector and haven't had a pay rise in almost 6 years! I just feel compared to alot of other professions, teachers have it quite good? I mean their starting salary is the same as a junior doctor. I get it inflation has wrecked everyone, but surely the issue should be getting inflation down? Not just demanding for more money, which by the way only fuels inflation further. AIBU to feel that teachers just don't know how good they have it compared to the rest of us?

Mookie81 · 23/01/2023 07:44

Why is anyone engaging with this twat? They're either a troll or an idiot whose mind won't suddenly be changed.

NewPapaGuinea · 23/01/2023 07:45

Why do you care if they strike or not? Either you have children and should be supportive of them having a properly funded education or you don’t and should be supportive of properly funded education anyway.

ChungusBoi · 23/01/2023 07:46

Mookie81 · 23/01/2023 07:44

Why is anyone engaging with this twat? They're either a troll or an idiot whose mind won't suddenly be changed.

Probably Tory party HQ on reflection. 😂 You’re right, let’s all leave the thread.

Whatmarbles · 23/01/2023 07:46

@FrippEnos I misread your post 🙈

There is someone here though who claims pay is pro rata, so my question stands.

pleasehelpwi3 · 23/01/2023 07:49

I've missed a trick. I'm going to start submitting overtime claims for all the work I do in the holidays, given that according to the some of the nutters on this post I only work pro-rata/part time. I'll let you know what the HT says.

itsgettingweird · 23/01/2023 07:51

FlairBand · 23/01/2023 04:54

@itsgettingweird

Fact 1 - they don't get paid holiday for 3 months. They get a salary that reflects their working year

This always bugs me.

Because what you’re actually saying is that once holidays are taken into account, teachers salaries are actually much higher.

For example average teacher salary is £38k (govt stats… teacher with no SLT type role). They have 13 weeks not working, of which say 5 weeks is paid holiday to even things up even though on a pro rated basis over weeks worked this would be very generous but for arguments sake let’s try it. That means 8 weeks not working = not paid, or 15% of a year of 52 weeks (to which the salary applies). Therefore the salary is equivalent to £43,700 in a role where employee is paid for 52 weeks including 5 weeks holiday.

Add on pension contributions of 21% (24% less 3% that private sector get) and suddenly you have a salary that is worth around….

£53,800

I mean… it’s not all that bad is it?

It doesn't actually work like that though.

Teachers don't work 9-5/6. They are mostly in school 7/8 am until 5/6pm. Then work evenings and weekends.

They also have planning etc to do during the school holidays.

So the salary isn't as simple as reflecting 44 working weeks doing normal hours Vs 52 weeks of the year.

They work condensed hours during term time (usually a 70 hour working week) and less during school holidays and get approx 4 weeks fully off during summer holidays.

The salary is annual and it's based on the fact teachers are known to have to work however many hours required for the demands of the job.

The demands have gone up. Wages have gone down in real time.

foxynoxy · 23/01/2023 07:52

FlairBand · 23/01/2023 07:13

Which means that your actual annual equivalent salary is around 15% HIGHER than the headline figure because it’s prorated.

Therefore meaning…. A £38k (average) teacher salary is same as about £43.8k for an employee.

I’m not sure why teachers continue to peddle this line as it hugely undermines your argument about low pay!!

Show quote history

This 100%.

I don't think enough teachers and members of the public understand this.

Whilst I support their right to strike and understand some of their frustrations the reality is a lot of teachers have currently got a good deal that their skills and education wouldn't command in any other profession.

Where I live the teacher shortages are in maths, science and modern foreign language secondary education. Many of the teaching assistants in primary schools have a PGCE and are unable to secure a teaching role so are gaining extra experience in thelassroom. The local big city university has 80% of sports science graduates doing a PGCE.

The real failings and shortages in education appear to be the inability to attract teachers in certain disciplines. Prepared to get flamed for that statement and appreciate certain geographical areas have their own challenges. We need to seriously consider compensating teachers in science, maths and MFL to a higher level, it is no coincidence that disciplines that command better pay in the private sector also struggle to recruit teachers!

AudreyBabs · 23/01/2023 08:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Nice bit of cunty slipstreaming there.

Elsanore · 23/01/2023 08:06

scoutcat · 23/01/2023 03:48

@Pinky1011 because it will help teachers pay their bills and in my case would have been able to cover my childcare costs, which is part of the reason why I am no longer teaching as I just cannot afford the childcare. A lot of teaching work is unpaid labour and the fact that we've had a pay cut in real terms means that a lot of our labour is unpaid. The biggest issue for a lot of us is the workload.

Arriving at school at 7am to finish prepping and planning lessons, setting the classroom up etc is manageable and just part of the job. Fine. Then between the hours of 8:30-3:15 (usually) is taken up with the children, delivering lessons, dealing with behaviour, answering queries from parents maybe, having meetings about progress and attainment perhaps, having meetings about subject leadership, monitoring from senior leaders about maths, reading, writing, SEN and maybe an extra curricular lesson - this could be taking your books to them, discussing planning, discussing test results etc. One of the dinner ladies was off sick so I had to cover her at dinner. I haven't eaten since my cereal bar this morning whilst standing at the door to greet the children.

Then the children go home and you sit down to mark the work from today and depending on your school policy this could be very quick or you could be marking 30 English books, maths books, topic books, maybe a spelling test or times tables test, guided reading work, home work etc with a comment tailored to that child. Maybe two positive comments and one comment to work on. For me, I couldn't get this all done before I had to leave to pick my child up from nursery. No mention of the stupid forms I had to fill in about god knows what - maybe some paperwork about our pupil premium children to prove what extra provision they were getting, maybe my 6 SEN children needed their personal plans updating, maybe I needed to update SIMS and add on 5 behaviour incidents and then inform the parents about it. Oh wait I've got 5 emails from parents about various things that apparently can't wait. But I still need to send out my positive praise texts! And I haven't even started planning tomorrow's maths, English and history lessons!! But first let me get the early morning work ready for when they come in. Oh the headteacher has just dropped by to ask if they can have a book from a higher achieving child, a child at age expectations and a lower achieving child for each subject but FUCK my marking is not up to date and they'll have me for it! Hopefully they won't put me on a support plan which means I'll need to be observed weekly and have weekly targets to hit. I already lose sleep about the fact that one child says he's scared to go home, another didn't eat any tea last night and a third can't even afford a winter coat. So and so slept inside a wardrobe last night because he hasn't got a bed.

Oh my god I can't even be bothered to go on because it's so depressing. Imagine me sat at my dining table after my children have gone to bed, marking and making PowerPoints for my next lesson. My PPA time is one afternoon and it is physically impossible to plan and resource so many lessons in that time. Anyone who can do it has my admiration.

Excellent, realistic description of a standard day for primary.

It's one of the biggest myths around that teaching is a family friendly career for parents.

Elsanore · 23/01/2023 08:07

FlairBand · 23/01/2023 04:03

Here is a genuine question.

Would teachers (and other public sector workers) accept a change to their pensions in return for higher pay or better conditions?

The govt is absolutely hamstrung by the cost of public sector pensions, the likes of which have now completely disappeared in the private sector where the typical worker gets just 3% employer pension contributions into a DC scheme, as opposed to the lifelong inflating income that teachers for example will get. Private sector workers btw had virtually no recourse when DB pensions were taken away, their salaries didn’t rise proportionately and most did not have access to a union to help them understand the changes let alone do anything about them.

At the moment, govt pays about 24% salary into a teachers pension each year and teacher pays around 7-10% depending on their pay scale.

Historically, public sector pay has always been a bit below private because the pensions were so generous (and they’re still generous even though they have changed a bit). But it strikes me as though this is being taken for granted and people want greater parity with the private sector.

I can see how there is an argument for teachers to have more pay up front and lower employee contributions, even though in the long term the current system is far more valuable. However, reforming pensions is a way to add greater flexibility around pay that would ultimately lower the total cost of employment to the govt … meaning that costs could be redirected to improving conditions whilst also increasing salaries.

Pensions are the single most overlooked benefit and barrier in all these debates and I’m interested to know what people think about including them in a solution (particularly if people want greater parity with private sector).

Teachers' pensions conditions have already been made far less generous, and our retirement age raised.

CaptainMum · 23/01/2023 08:12

No need to be jealous, become a teacher OP. Many are leaving, so plenty of openings for you to pick from.

violetcuriosity · 23/01/2023 08:14

'Genuine question but why do teachers do this?
Why don’t you all say no? We’re working 40 hours a week. No more.'

So many factors, level of experience means some can plan/resource much quicker. The longer you've been teaching the more likely you are to have a bank of plans and resources you can quickly adapt. Toxic SLT in some settings means that your best is never enough, PPA is often taken at short notice which means the time you'd set aside for your planning is taken and needs to be done in your own time, if you are mentoring a student training then your PPA time is usually taken up by helping them, sometimes there are behaviour/safeguarding issues that take until 6/6:30 to resolve.... Basically there are so many variables and children are so unpredictable that it just isn't a cut and dried working week.

MrsHamlet · 23/01/2023 08:14

Thought for the day: why is it only public sector pay that fuels inflation, and not private sector bonuses?

GreetingsToTheNewBrunette · 23/01/2023 08:20

MrsHamlet · 23/01/2023 08:14

Thought for the day: why is it only public sector pay that fuels inflation, and not private sector bonuses?

Indeed

FlairBand · 23/01/2023 08:20

You avoided my question. Would you take a drop to 3% and DC?

MademoiselleTrunchbull · 23/01/2023 08:23

All the teachers I know (admittedly only a few) seem stressed and overworked. I remember staying at my mate's while waiting to move into my new house and his partner is a teacher. We'd be sitting there having a post work glass of wine and she'd be locked away upstairs doing hours of marking every night.

Maryquitecontrary55 · 23/01/2023 08:24

I'm a rep for a teaching union. It's quite simple, OP. If you're unhappy with your own pay and conditions, unionise. Don't try and tear down other unionised professions. It's obvious from your posts that you have no idea what goes into being a teacher in a typical primary or secondary school.

FlairBand · 23/01/2023 08:25

Maryquitecontrary55 · 23/01/2023 08:24

I'm a rep for a teaching union. It's quite simple, OP. If you're unhappy with your own pay and conditions, unionise. Don't try and tear down other unionised professions. It's obvious from your posts that you have no idea what goes into being a teacher in a typical primary or secondary school.

@Maryquitecontrary55 coild you do an AMA?

YouScrewMeIScrewYouBack · 23/01/2023 08:27

It's always a lose-lose situation saying anything negative about teachers on MN. I think 90% of the site are teachers. They'll all argue that they work ridiculous hours (pretty much like most other industries). Funny though because my teacher friend told me she did 30mins work a day during Covid. Quite different to the 11hours I did in a public facing role.

foxynoxy · 23/01/2023 08:32

@FlairBand

you will struggle to get a rational discussion here on this point unfortunately.

It is however the elephant in the room and the obvious starting point for reform. As proven by the above comment, many teachers and other public sector workers are fixated on the fact their pension is worse than the even more generous gold plated public sector pensions of yesteryear without any understanding of private sector pensions and the defined contribution system.

The whole compensation package for roles needs to be discussed not just salary. Unfortunately any talk around the generosity and unsustainability of public sector pensions is shouted down as "race to the bottom"!!

MrsMurphyIWish · 23/01/2023 08:45

YouScrewMeIScrewYouBack · 23/01/2023 08:27

It's always a lose-lose situation saying anything negative about teachers on MN. I think 90% of the site are teachers. They'll all argue that they work ridiculous hours (pretty much like most other industries). Funny though because my teacher friend told me she did 30mins work a day during Covid. Quite different to the 11hours I did in a public facing role.

@YouScrewMeIScrewYouBack So that one teacher’s experience means we all behaved like that?

First Monday of Lockdown April 2020, I was teaching live to all my classes, ignoring my own young children like many other parents.

it’s comments like this that make us good teachers angry.

I don’t know what your role is but how would you feel if say, you’re a insurance rep WFH and I called you to discuss my pet’s insurance and all I heard was a dog barking and then I said all wfh reps were lazy and milking the system? Not fair is it?

(Btw, that happened last month!)

FlairBand · 23/01/2023 08:54

foxynoxy · 23/01/2023 08:32

@FlairBand

you will struggle to get a rational discussion here on this point unfortunately.

It is however the elephant in the room and the obvious starting point for reform. As proven by the above comment, many teachers and other public sector workers are fixated on the fact their pension is worse than the even more generous gold plated public sector pensions of yesteryear without any understanding of private sector pensions and the defined contribution system.

The whole compensation package for roles needs to be discussed not just salary. Unfortunately any talk around the generosity and unsustainability of public sector pensions is shouted down as "race to the bottom"!!

This is why we need a like button on mumsnet!

FlairBand · 23/01/2023 08:56

MrsMurphyIWish · 23/01/2023 08:45

@YouScrewMeIScrewYouBack So that one teacher’s experience means we all behaved like that?

First Monday of Lockdown April 2020, I was teaching live to all my classes, ignoring my own young children like many other parents.

it’s comments like this that make us good teachers angry.

I don’t know what your role is but how would you feel if say, you’re a insurance rep WFH and I called you to discuss my pet’s insurance and all I heard was a dog barking and then I said all wfh reps were lazy and milking the system? Not fair is it?

(Btw, that happened last month!)

Show quote history

I think her point is rather that for every person who is “working to 2am”, there is someone “who only did 30 mins a day during covid”.

freyamay74 · 23/01/2023 08:57

@Pinky1011 you need to become a teacher! Go on - dare ya!

scoutcat · 23/01/2023 09:17

@Elsanore Excellent, realistic description of a standard day for primary.
*
And I'd describe that as a good day all things considered!!*