Thinking that these baby assessment (SS) are spectacularly late.

[LoveMyPiano]

Friend/neighbour is - as I posted months ago - pregnant (again) and due around 21/2.

This baby, as have two prior to this, most likely to be taken into "the system" - BUT, certain assessments need to be done. She is still getting legal help over the adoption of the last one, and what she "wants" (which is I think, annual photos), and now there is of course cross-over of the cases regarding these two babies (last one is now 18 months old and with adoptive parents - finally; it took a while). But she could easily give birth to this one at any moment, and to still be getting assessed, seems so late minute!

They are still saying that they will not be completed, and thus, a decision made, until mid-February. And yet they will be critical of the fact that she has not made much preparation herself.

I have obviously failed with regard to boundary setting - although some ARE respected. I simply cannot turn my back on her - and am slight pissed off at her parents (themselves adopters and foster parents) who do seem to be supportive with this, which is why a lot of it falls on me.

Does anyone else think that this should have been settled - as much as it can be long before now, It would be hard enough on someone without mental struggles (part of why, 1. theses children and taken away from her, and 2. she keeps getting pregnant....) - so being to late with these processes it almost tantamount.

Or any official perspective would be greatly welcome as well.....

How terrible

assessments should have been scheduled in a timely manner or even if late at least done . Shocking that they weren’t. What is the reason for removal instantly if not a serious addiction ?

Re the last two posts
OP, you don't know the full picture. Just because a PAMS assessment hasn't been completed doesn't mean they don't have enough evidence to be sure the baby would come to significant harm if it went home with her.

re the reply to the OP's recent post - there are lots of reasons a baby may not be safe that aren't related to addiction. It's really none of our business on this board what the reason is and the OP has wisely not given details.

Yes, I haven't stated the reasons - only what I know it is NOT (as it was being slightly surmised by a couple of posters that addiction/drugs were the reason); for as much as I am posting at all, I don't think I should share why....
I am thinking that, by now, SS just sweep the baby away due to the previous baby being taken - in which case, talk of Assessments (by the Solicitor AND SWs) and PLO meetings was merely box-ticking, as they were always going to remove. This differs though from last time, as they had time in Hospital together and the whole year of dragging it out before Baby1 was adopted.

I am not sure how ell equipped I am to help her though ( and I she will come to me) - and again, really do hope that official support is put in place and that her parents (as awful as it might me - but hmm, not sure....) step up., at least a little.
I am very worried that they will say "Oh LoveMyPiano has been great, and she's right next door!"

This is literally and metphorically a bit close to home.😥

Quite honestly if nothing has changed since the last child was born there is little point undertaking a detailed assessment. SS and health professionals will have shared information and decisions will have been made on that basis.

Hm, yes. But then that is what they should have said.....
And, to an extent, things HAVE changed - and they offered the possibility of Mother & Baby unit.
They should not have done those things if the plan all along was to remove on Day One.

(None of what I am saying means I agree totally with either side.)

and that her parents (as awful as it might me - but hmm, not sure....) step up., at least a little.I am very worried that they will say "Oh LoveMyPiano has been great, and she's right next door!"

IIRC you've said this neighbour was herself adopted from care and has an attachment disorder? Maybe have a Google about attachment disorders. What you are seeing as lack of care by her parents might be the recommended way to manage this person given her difficulties. I wouldn't assume they think you've been great, dealing with someone with an attachment disorder can from the outside can look counterintuitive or uncaring, but is actually the best way to support them. Information about attachment might also help you in how you relate to her going forwards. Just a thought.

@LoveMyPiano removal so close to birth means they have serious concerns as you know, but you seem to be interpreting it as 'decision made, end of' and it isn't. All the avenues for initial removal are short term. Either police powers, parent signs child over (section 20) or interim care order granted by the court. In the case of the first two, SS would still have to follow up with court for an ICO.

In this sense the assessments continue. If there is no new evidence/no change since the last child was removed then it's likely the court would set a short timetable with the final assessment and plan to be filed very quickly. Mums solicitor could still challenge the plan, and if there was any merit to her case the judge would be required to consider that before considering permanent removal, especially if the outcome would be adoption.

Yes, I suppose I am interpreting it as a Final decision, which is hasty - and "ignorant" of me, so thank you for the further information.

That could be becuase I see a side of her life that she does not present to the outside world, or even (if she can help it) to the official agencies. And again, I do not think the baby would do well with her.

That said, becuase \I thought there would be some time in Hospital together (and that I would be allowed to visit, which didn't last time...), I am now stuck with quite a few newborn baby outfits and cuddlies.

I wish we could sterilise such women.

Yes, I am wrong to think I know much about her (diagnosed) Attachment Disorder, just because I have been on the receiving end of it, and feel sure that her parents have their own way of handling her. But there's hands-off, and HANDS-OFF, and they (her mother particularly) are extremely so. Who DO they think will help her??

The hard part as well, is for her to see her parents fostering other children whilst ignoring her pleas for help... Whatever way of handling her that is meant to be seems very wrong to me (as I said, coloureds by my own experiences, but that does make me a compassionate individual, I like to think).

(And PS - they are financially misleading her as well, which adds another layer to it all.)

Harsh - but I do agree. I wish that "they" could see it for themselves.

I have raised the topic with her, and she knows full well that it is against her Human Rights.

Is having an attachment disorder a reason that a child can be removed from its mother?

I doubt it, on it's own.
There is much more to it here though.

But there's hands-off, and HANDS-OFF, and they (her mother particularly) are extremely so. Who DO they think will help her??

You're missing the point - its not that they want someone else to help her, it's that allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her actions is them helping her. And well meaning others who see it as neglectful or uncaring might be getting in the way of that. Genuinely, Google RAD in adopted children.

The hard part as well, is for her to see her parents fostering other children whilst ignoring her pleas for help... Whatever way of handling her that is meant to be seems very wrong to me

Yes, because you don't understand what you're looking at. Adopters who are also foster carers will have had a ton of training in managing RAD, it seems extremely unlikely they'd abandon their adopted child only to lavish care on other children. Or that they'd be used by social care as foster carers if they did.

You might think you are being compassionate but you might inadvertently be undoing painful learning this young woman needs, eg that manipulation, threatening suicide etc is not a good way to get attention or care. That you can't pick new parental figures if yours won't do what you want them to. Seriously, RAD can be a minefield.

(And PS - they are financially misleading her as well, which adds another layer to it all.)

Please report them in that case.

@Bluebirdpinkcat simple answer is no. Especially for attachment, as its not a clear 'diagnosis' and we all have an attachment style, with strengths and weaknesses as part of it. However if mum has had significant emotional/social difficulties and has been assessed as having an attachment disorder, then the impact of that on their ability to parent would be taken into account, and information about attachment disorder would be considered in respect of the likelihood of them being able to change any of the issues that were a worry.

For example if someone has an attachment disorder they are likely to find it harder to develop a secure bond with their own baby, harder to attune to babies needs, more likely to struggle with highs and lows of mood etc. Many people who have been removed from their biological parents will have some degree of attachment disorder, many who do go on to be good parents but it is harder.

@harrassedmumto3 that's a pretty horrible statement. An alternative that should be available everyone but isn't, is intensive support to parents who have had a child removed to try and prevent the same happening again, including emotional support or therapy if the reason for pregnancy is related to their own unmet emotional needs.

Something I forgot to add as well, be careful what you google. In the UK attachment styles are generally considered more fluid and something that may be possible to change. In the US it tends to be viewed as more fixed (and like with anything in the US, more likely to have a treatment that involves medication)

No, but please bear in mind one child has already been removed under the most stringent thresholds in the uk legal system so there has already been evidenced harm caused to a child.

Wait!
No ACTUAL harm has been done, or caused....
...and I never said that it had.
Baby 1 was never brought home at all. But they were together, supervised, in hospital for over a week after birth.
Then followed a very long process which involved supervised contact on a gradually reducing basis, until Court hearing for final decision in Jan 2022.
The contact reduced further until stopped (before actual adoption -- baby nearly one year old, so no longer Newborn) by about July.

By then she was pregnant again.

I don’t want to repeat what I put in an earlier post, but I think your understandable support for this mother and your desire to meet this child may be slightly blinding you to the reality facing your neighbour.

She will have been extensively assessed in the first proceedings. Any possible way of keeping the child with her will have been explored. Removal at birth requires the LA to meet a very high threshold of imminent risk of significant harm. If there was any way for the first baby to have been placed in a residential unit or mother and baby placement this was highly likely to have happened. The fact that it didn’t means your neighbour and/or any partner she has presents such a risk of harm to her children that even with 24 hour monitoring and supervision the courts have considered it is not safe. The concerns may not relate to substance misuse but there are a multitude of other factors that can present a risk to a child.

Also, please bear in mind that your information comes from your neighbour, who may not be the most reliable source. Her solicitor may have discussed a mother and baby placement with her this time round, but if nothing has changed in your neighbour’s life she will have been told that it was highly unlikely she would be placed in one. She may not have passed onto you (or understood herself) the full context of the advice.

And I’m sorry to say that there is very little support available to your neighbour unless she actively wants it. There are a number of charitable programmes being set up around the country that provide therapy to mothers in the cycle of multiple children being removed. In my area it’s called PAUSE. The mother has to actively want to break the cycle and will be expected to have a contraceptive implant fitted.

@AFS1 I am not "blinded" ---- but am aware that I am coloured by my own experiences, and am being careful not to add to the indifference and hostility she gets from others (wrongly or rightly) - and yes, of course, she is the main source of information, and has been known to bend the truth for sympathy. I do try to bear that in mind.

With regard to the support she gets offered - I suppose she maybe does, and I have heard mention of PAUSE, but don't think she engaged with it, so yes, the onus seems to be totally on her to take that step (which shouldn't be the case).. She says that SS had told her to definitely think very carefully before another pregnancy (after last time) as the chance of removal was about 90%. She agreed with them, and had the implant fitted (again), but sneakily had it removed (telling her BF it was still fitted) - so, in one sense he is as bad as her (and also has two other children in the care system).

I was until a few months ago, friendly with his mother - who I feel SO sorry for, seeing all these babies/her grandchildren go into the system 😥