Thinking that these baby assessment (SS) are spectacularly late.

[LoveMyPiano]

Friend/neighbour is - as I posted months ago - pregnant (again) and due around 21/2.

This baby, as have two prior to this, most likely to be taken into "the system" - BUT, certain assessments need to be done. She is still getting legal help over the adoption of the last one, and what she "wants" (which is I think, annual photos), and now there is of course cross-over of the cases regarding these two babies (last one is now 18 months old and with adoptive parents - finally; it took a while). But she could easily give birth to this one at any moment, and to still be getting assessed, seems so late minute!

They are still saying that they will not be completed, and thus, a decision made, until mid-February. And yet they will be critical of the fact that she has not made much preparation herself.

I have obviously failed with regard to boundary setting - although some ARE respected. I simply cannot turn my back on her - and am slight pissed off at her parents (themselves adopters and foster parents) who do seem to be supportive with this, which is why a lot of it falls on me.

Does anyone else think that this should have been settled - as much as it can be long before now, It would be hard enough on someone without mental struggles (part of why, 1. theses children and taken away from her, and 2. she keeps getting pregnant....) - so being to late with these processes it almost tantamount.

Or any official perspective would be greatly welcome as well.....

The support would not be at that level, so I am not being naive at all.

What was “very very harsh and cold” when she announced this pregnancy supposed to achieve? To encourage or bully her into abortion? That’s got nothing to do with anything.

Doesn’t this fall under safeguarding and i always hear that safeguarding is everyone’s business. I think OP is clearly a very kind person and is doing the right thing trying to help

It was offered with the last baby.
Nothing HAS changed - or has changed sufficiently for them to let her keep, I would say.
She has an implant and then sneakily got it removed, but told the baby's father (also of previous one) that it was still in. She cannot be trusted, but of course, forced sterilisation is against human rights.
I am not suggesting that her parents take on any of her babies, but that they offer moral support - especially given the background. Instead, they are fostering other, non-related, babies.

There's already SS involvement. And her parents are involved.

It's not a spectator sport.

I mean in all reality they're going to be going into Court Proceedings and that can't happen until the baby is born. A pre proceedings meeting is likely to be necessary in the coming weeks and a prebirth however I'd be mindful that you don't know the ins and Outs of court proceedings, if the last one had damning judgments against the mother this very short period (probably around a year since proceedings on the 18 month old ended) is unlikely to make huge changes to concerns. You're also taking mum at face value, they may have tried engaging her, she'd still have a SW for the ones in foster placement and it may be that the assessment will be complete in the coming weeks, doesn't mean that they haven't gathered a vast amount of information already.

You know that her parents are entitled to their own boundaries and you have no right to judge?

God, no - I did NOT even mention abortion.
(Although though it, having been pushed into one myself, even as a married woman).
Your interpretation of harsh and cold must be different to mine.
How I feel about it now- and felt about it then - have PLENTY to do with it.

OP best thing you can do is offer moral support to the mum. Maybe see if she can get on the Reflect programme after this baby? It's a great service run by Barnardo's.

Yes there. No they aren't.

I am being pushed into the involvement, and being me, find it "easier" to try and be supportive and help, TO AN EXTENT, than go against my true nature and cut her off and turn her down when she does ask for help.

(She lives right next door, so I am often caught on my way in or out....so much so that I have just basically given in to it. She and I will be heading out for birthday lunch in an hour, so I am just trying to get some MN input and help myself, before I go.)

Thank you - I shall look into that.

OP from what I understand from your posts, the PAMS assessment is likely to have minimal impact on the outcome if there have been recent removals, it may be that aspects of her learning difficulty need further assessment, her solicitor may have pushed for the assessment to include time when the baby is here, or it may be needed to rule out that any service the solicitor is angling for is viable. It may be that they want info from the assessment to inform the childs care plan. Either way though, if a decision has already been made that an application will be submitted when baby arrives, then a certain level of assessment has already been completed to make that decision.

PAMS assessments take a long time by their nature. It is a methodical assessment that can't be rushed. The application will be made to court when the baby arrives, usually in these situations the judge will be the same as the other children's judge and will have an awareness of this expected application. If the judge doesn't feel the info is relevant they can proceed without it, but presumably the judge does want the assessment completed or the dates wouldn't have been set. Trust me when I say that a judge wouldn't take a delay on proceedings for a newborn if it was something like bad planning or a high workload on the local authority social worker.

Correct, I don't (although I was with her the day she went to Court and adoption was decided - and that had taken a terribly long time....) know much about such proceedings, hence my question.

I obviously find it difficult to separate out the personal from the formal and official. Like any human being (and especially with my background - which I try to separate out.).

And yes, I thought too that given the short interval between pregnancies, the official stance would likely be the same, even though she has improved SOME aspects of her behaviour. Privately, I do believe it would never be or have been enough. I am quite clear about this when we discuss it....
Which is why it almost seems doubly cruel - although I see the official reasoning for it - to even imply that there is any hope of her keeping or the M&B unit.

I guess - speaking of my background - I am coloured by what happened with my own mother.
She gave birth to a 2lb baby, which went straight into an incubator. Apparently after 6 weeks, "walking around with the papers in her handbag", the baby was adopted, straight out of the incubator (apparently) and never seen again.

(Well, 20+ years later, they traced their family....but that's another story.

So much more efficient!! (sarcasm)

This process is the absolute opposite - wrongly or rightly.

If there are immediate concerns SS can apply for a court order before she can leave hospital, with assessments to follow.

It takes a long time for adoption to be firmed up, you'd do your usual court proceedings taking 26 weeks for Placement and Care Orders then look for adopters, go through that process then look at it being cemented in Court. The last child's experience would also have been coloured by the covid backlog impacting the judiciary I'd imagine. This time around it'll probably be much more straightforward.

I've done loads of pre birth risk assessments as a (now retired) SW. This is the right time to do it. Absolutely nothing at all can be done until the baby is born. Without a baby to protect it's all moot to be honest. You can put together all the facts and gather views to make an assessment with a variety of possible outcomes. That way you are somewhat ahead when the baby arrives and a decision can be made in the child's best interests at birth. From what you have said it is likely that if the child arrived tomorrow a court order would be applied for and he/she would be taken into care ahead of further planning. You need to really take a step back and be less involved with this woman.

How do you morally support her actions when these babies are your grandchildren? You're often too close. I had a very damaged relative who was using abortion as birth control after a removal/foster situation. I had to step back, it was killing me. Her parents adopted her at least, 20? Years ago, as you age you just don't have the same resilience and there seems to be no answers. Don't get sucked in to the aftermath. She'll have been offered all this help. Help her with the referral, but it's like domestic abusers sucking in the next one by them thinking they can change them. I don't mean that harshly, I've just had lots of experience. Only give what you absolutely can. Removal is going to happen. To not delay that the final assessment is best being done as late as possible. It's best for the baby that only one foster placement is used before adoption. She obviously isn't well, so I wouldn't overly harshly judge her and after all people are desperate to adopt newborns.

I am not judging her as harshly as some, that's for sure.

Last time (I hate that I am saying that), the baby never came home - but she and the father (who were on and off together) went to "contact" - at first three times a week, and then there were times when they went separately as they had "spilt up". The contact was gradually reduced, with the Christening last January being one of the final times - and one of the things that was pushed for.

Communication of sorts (not with the adoptive parents) still goes on, even though the adoption is almost finalised.

It has not been adoption as I know it (of course times are different), and one of the issues even now is the future updates that she is pushing for - through the Courts - is to receive annual photos.

This is of course, going on at the same time as the proceedings and assessments for the new baby.

We just spent the afternoon together, and she actually seems reconciled to this baby "going" - but, from my (not impartial) perspective, if she goes, she should be GONE; not the Death by Thousand Cuts of contact and future promises. She is I think, trying to exert some control in the situation, and really does like having people dance to her tune.

That's what they did last time - but it seemed to me - in my ignorance - to be back-to-front, at least to some extent.

Thanks to some of the information on here, I managed to offer another perspective to her when we spent time together today - such as the interval between last baby and this is why there is more (not less, as she thought) chance of new one being taken.

Is she likely to try to "replace" this baby by getting pg again quickly? Sadly the concerns must be very high to remove both children at birth.

Is there concern with her as much as him, or is it their relationship they are concerned about? Would she have capacity on her own if she ditched the dad? They give people enough time to make the changes, or enough rope to hand themselves with, whichever way you want to see it. But if they were hoping they would split up, because their relationship or the dad is the issue not their or her parenting capacity without that relationship or his involvement, then they give lots of opportunities to do that. A lot can change in 9 months, or even a few weeks, but if it is her parenting capacity they are concerned with then it does just seem cruel to not come to a quicker decision, yes.

Oh, I definitely think so.
And yes, the concerns were high.... certain things have changed this time around - but as I said to her - just thinking that "it's better because the Police have not been involved so often" is having a very low bar. There is so much more, and the environment - no matter how much support (including from me) and omissions by them can do a different kind of damage to what she sees as "actual harm".
In one sense,. the M&B unit might have been option, but would I suspect be delaying the inevitable.

Her own mother did the same, I think with 10, of which she is one, and all were taken away for foster/adoption.

She seems to think that he would actually have more chance of custody - and I highly disagree.

The present assessments are being done on the basis that they are not together anyway (although they "are".

And when I say that I am being supportive, I would not let them keep the baby with them. It would become something else they argue about, and use as a weapon.

[Posted too soon]

And yes! @Wednesdayschildhasstubbedhertoe - if parenting capacity is the reason - which it is - then the decision could surely be reached sooner (which was my initial issue). They know who they are dealing with - and she will never change - it is mental disability rather than (as well as) illness.