Public toilets and changing rooms should be redesigned to keep everyone safe

[Quinoawoman]

I propose that by changing the design of public toilets and changing rooms, we can keep everyone safe.
Pic 1 - how most public toilets are now. Small, dark doorway into dark space that can't be seen from the outside. I've often worried that there could be someone hiding in there waiting to do me harm. Would not let my daughter in there alone. Would not let my son go in the gents alone.
Pic 2 - unisex cubicles (floor to ceiling) all with an individual door onto the street. Pull open the door and see the whole space - limited room for someone to hide. Door obviously lockable from inside. No more worrying about where to send your child whose sex is different from yours.

Changing rooms could be similar - individual cubicles straight off the shop floor. No more David Lloyd-style open changing spaces where you fear dropping your towel and flashing everyone.

YABU - changing rooms and toilets are fine as they are
YANBU - changing the design would be better for everyone.

@RichardBarrister surely the point is not that people are trying to make it easier for predators, but make life livable for trans people. Who are at risk in single sex toilets. The problem is how to make trans people safe without compromising safety for non-trans people.

Nobody wants to make life easier for sex predators.

If you had to go through life dressed as the other sex and not passing so people knew - which toilet would you use?

It's clear that some people are approaching this through an ideological lens and not a practical one that prioritises safety and comfort. The dismissal of issues such as voyeurism, mess, people passing out, drug taking and potential assault is very telling. As is the loud and clear message that many (most?) women simply don't want to share facilities with men, in any circumstance. Women's opinions should matter.

Different toilet/changing set ups are needed in different environments. Enclosed, mixed sex cubicles in a nightclub would create more issues than in a workplace for example.

Lots of men don't want to have to use toilets where other knuckle-dragging neanderthal "men" have made a mess before them either! It's actually a minority of men who are incapable of civilised behaviour!

Not sure if it's a minority of men. I've cleaned supermarket and factory toilets (used to work for an industrial contract cleaning company). Mens toilets always stank of piss, no matter how much they were cleaned. It's the floors, as men shake off the drips and don't wipe. Oddly the disabled toilets didn't smell, hadn't even registered that until read it here. Also it wasn't unusual to wipe what I assume was cum off the walls. I always tell my DD to tear off and throw away the first bit of toilet paper, as you don't know what is on it.

We went in Five Guys a while ago, row of unisex toilets, I think totally concealed, but they stank, opened the door on every one and they all had piss where it shouldn't have been.

I don't see anywhere on this thread where people have dismissed sexual assault though? The whole point of the post was about safety, which people are rightly concerned about. I am interested in kerping everyone safe - women, young boys, trans people - everyone. It seems to me like design can go a long way towards keeping people safe. One previous poster mentioned assault statistics in 'changing villages' which I addressed in a previous post but forgot to attach the pictures. I'm going to do that now.

Early indications on the poll suggest that a majority of voters (probably mostly female) don't mind sharing facilities.

I don’t know any woman that likes mixed toilets. We were fine as we were . Leave us alone!

Early indications on the poll suggest that a majority of voters (probably mostly female) don't mind sharing facilities

With other females....

No, because that's not what the poll is asking.

I'm alright, Jack...

Well…yes. Why is it for women to solve the issues of other groups?. Literally nothing to do with us. Or shouldn’t be - the preferred loo access for minority groups has been unfortunately been made firmly our problem it seems 🙄

Can't say I see this issue, my son prefers to pee in a urinal and my daughter a toilet but both like it clean, no offence men but why you wee on floors, doors, streets etc is beyond me..... if I can water plants using a hose accurately why you can't hold your hose pipe and aim is strange. I'm never going to share a toilet with a strange man thank you, I have standards.
As for swimming pools, I like the unisex approach, it's same as the family changing rooms, at last I can force my partner to help with the kids! There will always be perverts no matter where we all go, be street wise, they stand out, I stare the hell out of them and trust me they soon get lost. Can't believe as a society we don't want to stop pervs, criminals, peeping toms whatever, until humans stop thinking how to avoid and not tackle the problem head on these perverts will continue to be as they have always been....our there in the open. Tackle the issues not try and make a frosted glass window so they just move to the next toilet

I wish we could change mens behaviour. I understand the discussion of toilet design as dealing with the symptoms of men being creepy bastards but would be better to deal with the cause of the problem.

YABU

Companies and public services shouldn’t have to fork out a small fortune just to ensure predatory men don’t harm people. Men should just use the toilets and changing rooms that are for them and not for women, and better protections should be offered.

I do think any NEW buildings should have toilets built like this though with individual cubicles.

Right now I'm more concerned that someone was using Adolf Hitler as an example for their bigoted behaviour, but that's just me.

Single sex facilities have worked for many years. There is no need to change them.

“surely the point is not that people are trying to make it easier for predators, but make life livable for trans people. Who are at risk in single sex toilets. The problem is how to make trans people safe without compromising safety for non-trans people.”

@Squamata can you point out the evidence that shows that trans people are at elevated risk of harm in single sex toilets? Can you explain, bearing in mind that a number of very female presenting male trans people happily and regularly use the mens toilets, how their life is ‘unlivable’ currently?

In the meantime we do have evidence that unisex and mixed sex facilities directly cause harm to women so when I say that some are trying to make it easier for predators, it is hard to assume that it is not deliberate.

Companies like Primark are faced with a increasing number of cases of sexual assault and voyeurism directly caused by their policy of allowing any male to self id into the women’s changing rooms. They have been asked to change their policy, yet they refuse. Councils with mixed sex changing rooms have countless instances of voyeurism and sexual assault. These are very rare in single sex facilities.

Why would they choose to continue with a policy known to cause harm for some unquantifiable, theoretical risk that may be faced by a tiny minority of people?

Can you explain the measurable benefit and number of trans people affected that outweighs the known harm caused to women and girls?

Nope. Do not want to share with men thank you

Trans women aren't women. They are men and always will be

How is a man at risk of other men in a male toilet and yet perfectly safe towards other women in a female toilet?

How can we manage the risk when we pretend that men who say specific words are safe? They aren't in any way safer than men who don't say specific words.

I do go through life dressed as a man, I have short [shaved] hair, I wear jeans, site boots and tshirts and fleeces. I'm perfectly safe from other women in women's toilets. It is men that are the risk here.

You don't need many men for the smell and sprinkling. All it takes is the odd one or two. Toilets aren't usually cleaned more than once a day, so if 20 blokes have used a particular cubicle, all it takes is 1 or 2 to "sprinkle"!

In most workplaces I've worked at, which have tended to be very small employers (typically 10 or less), without segregated toilets. More like one per floor, so everyone on that floor would use the toilet on that floor. Most floors would have a majority of men on most floors (other than ground floor which was usually reception/secretaries so that would be mostly women). I never noticed the toilets frequented mostly by men were particularly smelly/messy! But that was an office based environment, so perhaps less likely to be frequented by knuckle-dragging neanderthal types of men!

Likewise at home, I'm the only female and my DH and DS (and DS's friends) don't sprinkle everywhere and we rarely have any "mess" in or around the toilet.

To say it's "all" or "most" men is, I believe, completely wrong. It's the old 80:20 rule - probably over 80% of the mess/smell is caused by 20% or less of the men using them.

Omg. 😬🤯

Never heard of male on male rape or sexual assault?

The issues arise wherever men have access.

The following examples are from toilets/ changing I have personally used in my day to day life. Examples where I know about the crime because it's made the local press. I shudder to think of how much is unreported, undiscovered or unprosecuted.

*A unisex toilet as described in OP, in a cafe. Man planted secret recording device to film everyone using the loo. Stuff like this ends up in dark corners of the internet as porn.

*A unisex, disabled and staff loo at a school. Man planted camera to record users. Man had access because he was caretaker.

*A unisex "changing village" at pool. Man recorded teen girls changing by sliding iPhone under cubicle. Subsequently came out that staff had seen his pattern of predatory behaviour for months - including always being in the showers (open and unisex) at the same time as school groups - but nobody felt able to report.

*A single sex toilet used by women and children at a soft play centre. Man planted camera to record women and children using the loo. Man has access because was owner of said centre.

Yes. Men cause so many problems and issues and so much damage. Clearly whatever we are doing with men currently isn't working.

I don't really know the toilet answer. The above examples show wherever men have access, there is risk. Statistically, 75% of sexual assaults in changing rooms occur in mixed sex. Not sure if that includes loos.

Yes petal I have, so how are women miraculously safe from men when they come into women's toilets? The point is - all men are a potential threat. Why should more women be raped to save men? We aren't their shields.

I just wish they'd stop the unisex toilets. I went to the V&A London museum at the weekend and the loos I went into were along a narrow corridor. When I got out the loo no joke a massive extremely tall man got out his cubicle and just stood there in shock that I was already there trying to get out with my 9yo dd. He completely blocked my exit.

I'm quite sure I am not alone at having been assaulted as a woman and am very scared in places with confined spaces that force women to share with men. The man meant no ill I'm sure but I was frightened and it probably was unfortunate he was very tall and big so I felt even more intimidated. If he had wanted to do something he very easily could have done. I'm wondering if the corridor was particularly narrow where they've put sinks in every cubicle and changed them to unisex.

I am so fed up. I can't go to places anymore easily. I've written to venues before about this. These were the worst toilets at a big venue I've been to so far for not feeling safe at. Silly thing is I put it down to having been assaulted but my dh said he also feels awkward when in these confined spaces with women.