Page 16 | To think you should downsize your council house if it’s just you?

OuchOuchOuchh · 2023-01-12T09:58:53+00:00

Oh my goodness I have created war at work and everyone is gunning for me. My auntie has a huge 4 bedroom council house she has lived there since the 90s with her one son. That has now moved out. All i said was I think it’s unfair that she’s living in such a big family home perfect for a family to bring their kids up in. Large garden backs on to the woods plenty of visits from deers and fox’s it’s beautiful! Anyway all I said is that if you haven’t purchased the property in a certain amount of time you should have to downsize if it’s just you living there. Theres families overcrowded and can’t get anywhere then you have my auntie paying £100 a week in rent for a massive house for just herself. please tell me if I am being an asshole! I appreciate it’s her family home but it just doesn’t seem fair to me.

WhenIAmOldIShallWearPurple · 12/01/2023 14:49

ForTheLoveOfSleep · 12/01/2023 14:33

Because the majority of CH tenants are working people who are paying to live there. That's why it's different.

Council housing is a financial asset to local authorities. Despite the people who keep saying it's subsidised by the tax payer (who are also the people who live in CH btw) it just isn't.

To all the private renters moaning about how low it is don't deny you wouldn't snap a CH up if offered.

To everyone who judges those who have used the RTB scheme, don't say you would have turned down the opportunity to buy a house for 40% it's value.

I will keep saying this over and over to people. The problem isn't how much lower CH rents are. It's the greed of BTL landlords who purchased houses they can't afford by expecting other people to pay for it whilst still making a profit.
Also the lack of any government intervention in private rental rent rates.

Mortgaged properties should not be allowed to be rented out at profit. Can you imagine the amount of properties that would appear on the market if this happened? How much house prices would fall? How private rents would fall?

These are the things you should be mad at. This is where you need to direct your anger. Not to those in council homes.

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I'm not mad at Council tenants. And I absolutely agree that BTL landlords are a plague on our country.

We absolutely need to build more social housing. But it will almost ALWAYS be a limited resource that should be allocated fairly which is why I believe we have to remove sentimentality out of the equation, just like we do with all other resources.

Jonnywishbone · 12/01/2023 14:49

Eyerollcentral · 12/01/2023 14:44

No one’s suffering is more valid. Why are you setting up a hunger games scenario here? Not one tenant needs to justify why they haven’t surrendered their home. They are entitled to be there. Someone else not having somewhere adequate to live is not their fault.

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It's not their house.

In the 50s my mom lived in a council house. They had a spare room and the council made them share the whole house with another family. My mom shared a bedroom with that families child.

If there is a shortage of housing and a big waiting list we can solve the housing shortage in the same way our grandparents did?

C8H10N4O2 · 12/01/2023 14:49

BlokeHereInPeace · 12/01/2023 14:34

Apols for not having RTFT but this is a really interesting and important discussion. I did a few years as a councillor and we found that one solution was to offer single inhabitants of family homes, usually women whose children have left home and husbands have died, a new purpose built low-rise accomodation and help with moving, decoration etc. Not just paying the costs but giving the occupier two sets of stickers, green and red. Green on the stuff you want to move, and organise the moving.

There are sometimes incentives for downsizing but what happened was, the tenant would end up being taken to view a flat that was occupied, dishes in the sink, clothes drying on the radiator and sensibly think 'no thanks'.

And as I know many of us know, council housing IS NOT SUBSIDISED but is not built for profit.

Back to the OP, how does your aunty feel about it? Lots of happy memories, or struggling to keep warm in a big house that may not have been perfectly maintained? Loving all the space or lonely? If you have a sensible council then there could be a conversation to be had about getting a priority bid in for a one or two bed property.

This is exactly what used to happen when i was a child, before all the good stock was sold off and not replaced. It worked perfectly well and enabled housing to rotate.

Obviously not as satisfying to some posters as kicking out good but ageing tenants as a punishment for (something, no idea what).

I'm longing ot know where this hypopthetical aunty (its always an aunty or a cousin isn't it?) lives, with her 4 bed idyll with deer gently nuzzling her hand for nibbles on £100 a week. The only places I know where market rents are that low for a house that size and idyllically placed are the spots where few people want to live.

babsanderson · 12/01/2023 14:51

@Notwavingbutsignalling You are totally wrong. One third of people used to live in council houses in my City.
You can't get benefits if you have much savings anyway. Not everyone in council houses is on benefits. But those that are can never safe for a deposit.

XenoBitch · 12/01/2023 14:51

Refreshmentsanyone · 12/01/2023 14:49

@Cuppasoupmonster that is the most ignorant post I’ve seen in a long time.

Council and housing association tenants are not in social housing because they don’t work. It’s because they can’t get a mortgage to buy. Your only choice is to rent.

Yep.
My mum climbs out of bed at 4am so she can pay the rent on her council house... which she will be paying rent for until she dies, working or not.
At least with a mortgage, you eventually pay it off.

FlameGrilledSquirrel · 12/01/2023 14:51

You review SH properties every x number of years and I will bet money that dependants/lodgers/friends will move in just before review and then move out immediately on renewal.

I'm also curious as to exactly where all the new social housing properties are going to be built? Probably would also have the effect of pushing new build prices up as the social housing sector would be competing for land.

Isn't it also about time we looked at population control as I doubt ANY party could have kept up with the huge population increase in the last 40 years?

Kabalagala · 12/01/2023 14:51

Eyerollcentral · 12/01/2023 14:44

No one’s suffering is more valid. Why are you setting up a hunger games scenario here? Not one tenant needs to justify why they haven’t surrendered their home. They are entitled to be there. Someone else not having somewhere adequate to live is not their fault.

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Which is why individuals should never be allowed to decide which public services (because that's what a council house is) they should be entitled to.
Maybe it's not an individuals fault, but we all live in the same society, we all have the same opportunities to vote, so we should all have to live with the consequences. If that means an old lady doesn't get a massive council house to herself I have no issue with that.
It's not like this situation has happened over night, it's been coming for decades, long before I was even born in fact. If someone hasn't prepared for the possibility of some upheaval that's on them.
I don't belive anyone should be "entitled" to live in one particular house that doesn't belong to them.

Eyerollcentral · 12/01/2023 14:54

Hellybelly84 · 12/01/2023 14:38

I think someone has just said what I was going to say-council houses are government owned, tax-payer funded assets and private homes are owned by the home owner. We can choose what we want to do with them, the other should be used to get the best value for all tax payers.

The best value for me is knowing young families who cant afford private rents have a home to live in (not a bed sit or rundown hotel) and older people are not rattling around in large council houses. Agree part of the solution for that is to build more council properties of all sizes to be able to maximise their use to suit the people living there.

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Great but to do that you have to disregard 1,000 years of common law in England regarding the validity of leases and tenancies and scrap god knows how much legislation. Do you think that’s a good thing to do? What other laws do you think the government should just jettison to make things handier in the short term? Things all start to unravel very quickly when you do that.
Alternative is to spend millions bribing people to give up their tenancies. Again, good use of money?
Much more straightforward to compulsorily purchase the huge amount of vacant property in the private sector and put council tenants in. But that’s not popular because that effects the price of houses negatively, and that is never allowed to happen (despite a great deal of the country being priced out of the market).
I’ve said it before but it doesn’t appear to be sinking in, tenants are tax payers too. The problem with many on this thread is a short sightedness that ultimately says poorer people shouldn’t expect to rely upon the protection of the law of the land, unless it suits everyone else.

AnotherSpare · 12/01/2023 14:54

Thesonglastslonger · 12/01/2023 10:05

I agree with you.

It isn’t her family home. It’s the government’s family home that she’s borrowed for a pittance. If she still can’t afford market rent (after all this time!) then she should be housed in a one bed so that homeless children squashed with their parents into a single bedroom at a ‘temporary’ hostel for 1+ yr can have a home.

Council houses should be there to help the temporarily homeless get back on their feet, not to provide cheap rent for life to the lucky chosen few while others sleep on the street.

Wholeheartedly this!

CrocodileShoooooesCrocodileShoes · 12/01/2023 14:55

Kabalagala · 12/01/2023 14:36

Why is your "suffering" more valid than for example a family crammed into a temporary bedsit because their landlord sold up? The reality is, it's not your house.
Like I said before, we can't all have what we want all the time.
My expensive little ex council house is an hour away from where we were renting. Because we couldn't afford to stay there. It's so horrendous for you to move, but anyone else, fine and dandy.

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I was that family crammed into a bedsit, and I waited my turn.I never said it was fine for anyone to be forced to move, that's your stance, not mine.I went through a lot to get this house, and I have a lifetime tenancy on it, as such I poured money into making it lovely over the years, which private renters wouldn't do as they don't have lifetime tenancies.The responsibility for the people crammed into bedsits is entirely on the government, and not on people who were promised a home for life, however much some people seem to think it's entirely our fault.

twinkletwinkle89 · 12/01/2023 14:56

uhtredsonofuhtred1 · 12/01/2023 10:09

I live in a lovely 3 bed council house. At the moment I've got 4 children at home and need it.

I've often wondered what I'll do when they've all left home. I've spent a fortune already on home improvements and will no doubt spend £1000's more over the next 10-15 years. So why should I then downsize to something that would most likely be shit inside, a flat where who knows what the neighbours would be like, away from my neighbours who are a source of support. Now if there was a nicely maintained smaller property in a good area, then I'd definitely consider it. As much as it might seem a waste of space, it's my home and as long as I pay the rent then why shouldn't I live here? I am not responsible for the families that need a bigger home, it's the governments fault for not replacing the housing stock or for not coming down tougher on rogue private landlords who don't keep their properties of a good standard at a decent price

Because you more than likely getting a very subsidised rent cost!

AllThingsServeTheBeam · 12/01/2023 14:56

twinkletwinkle89 · 12/01/2023 14:56

Because you more than likely getting a very subsidised rent cost!

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It's not subsided

ForTheLoveOfSleep · 12/01/2023 14:57

twinkletwinkle89 · 12/01/2023 14:56

Because you more than likely getting a very subsidised rent cost!

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Seriously.... Just no. Again, council houses are a public asset and actually turn a profit.

Eyerollcentral · 12/01/2023 14:58

Jonnywishbone · 12/01/2023 14:49

It's not their house.

In the 50s my mom lived in a council house. They had a spare room and the council made them share the whole house with another family. My mom shared a bedroom with that families child.

If there is a shortage of housing and a big waiting list we can solve the housing shortage in the same way our grandparents did?

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I don’t know what kind of tenancy your mum had but I doubt anyone know has a tenancy that would permit a local authority to do that. Why aren’t council tenants allowed to rely on the agreement they have signed in good faith?
Can you out a family up then?

Refreshmentsanyone · 12/01/2023 15:00

And the rent in most HA properties is often no different to the amount people are paying in mortgages actually.

Eyerollcentral · 12/01/2023 15:01

Kabalagala · 12/01/2023 14:51

Which is why individuals should never be allowed to decide which public services (because that's what a council house is) they should be entitled to.
Maybe it's not an individuals fault, but we all live in the same society, we all have the same opportunities to vote, so we should all have to live with the consequences. If that means an old lady doesn't get a massive council house to herself I have no issue with that.
It's not like this situation has happened over night, it's been coming for decades, long before I was even born in fact. If someone hasn't prepared for the possibility of some upheaval that's on them.
I don't belive anyone should be "entitled" to live in one particular house that doesn't belong to them.

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I can’t keep saying this they are entitled to by law. You don’t see so up in arms about vacant properties in the private sector which could be given over to council housing. Why’s that?

Notwavingbutsignalling · 12/01/2023 15:01

@babsanderson

why bring benefits into it? As many have pointed out social housing tenants are mostly in work.

I was thinking more of getting a better paid job/second job/other options. These are the things that many have done to get a mortgage (or shared ownership). Some councils offered mortgages in the past and may still do. There are other options but obviously they will not be suitable for everyone and there will be people through I’ll health, circumstance, etc that will need council/ha/ social housing.

I think ( to get back to the OP and her query about under occupation) then it isn’t right either that a vulnerable family are split up/ homeless/ in substandard accommodation and someone has spare rooms.

It doesn’t even take into account those of us who never had children as our circumstances felt so precarious. We have so many different perspectives on how public money works and should work that we really need greater transparency and accountability.

OMG12 · 12/01/2023 15:03

Eyerollcentral · 12/01/2023 14:41

You know what’s fair? Equality before the law. So if you have agreed a lifetime tenancy with anyone and continue to abide by the terms of it, you are entitled to rely on it. That’s what this comes down to and it is genuinely shocking so many of you say so what

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That’s what we are saying needs to change. There should be no lifetime entitlement to scarce government owned assets.

Jonnywishbone · 12/01/2023 15:06

ForTheLoveOfSleep · 12/01/2023 14:57

Seriously.... Just no. Again, council houses are a public asset and actually turn a profit.

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They are capped at 80% of the local private sector rent! They are subsidised because they are charged out at lower rates. I wish I could have a 20% (and more) discount on real world housing costs

Beezknees · 12/01/2023 15:07

Agree OP. I am a HA tenant. I will happily downsize when DC moves out. This flat has been a massive help to me as a single mother, and I would like to see another person in need benefit from it.

Hellybelly84 · 12/01/2023 15:08

Beezknees · 12/01/2023 15:07

Agree OP. I am a HA tenant. I will happily downsize when DC moves out. This flat has been a massive help to me as a single mother, and I would like to see another person in need benefit from it.

Thank you for a sensible reply and view of the world.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2023 15:08

All new contracts should have this criteria.

But I don't think it can be backdated. As much as it sucks.

I also think that once you reach a certain income threshold, you should have to serve notice and move out of a council property. This wouldn't affect many people, but I do find it momentually gross you have people on huge incomes in council properties.

Council properties should be reserved for low income households and be designated according to need. Nothing more and nothing less. If you needs / circumstance change then this should also change - within reason and with a certain amount of human leeway and understanding (eg kids going to university - rooms can be left 'open' for a limited number of years).

Jonnywishbone · 12/01/2023 15:08

OMG12 · 12/01/2023 15:03

That’s what we are saying needs to change. There should be no lifetime entitlement to scarce government owned assets.

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Then just like in the 50s we should be able to force council tenants with spare rooms to accomodate people with no housing. This would be exactly in line with what historically happened with council housing and true to the spirit in which it was built.

Cuppasoupmonster · 12/01/2023 15:08

XenoBitch · 12/01/2023 14:51

Yep.
My mum climbs out of bed at 4am so she can pay the rent on her council house... which she will be paying rent for until she dies, working or not.
At least with a mortgage, you eventually pay it off.

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How much is the rent, out of interest?

Hellybelly84 · 12/01/2023 15:09

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2023 15:08

All new contracts should have this criteria.

But I don't think it can be backdated. As much as it sucks.

I also think that once you reach a certain income threshold, you should have to serve notice and move out of a council property. This wouldn't affect many people, but I do find it momentually gross you have people on huge incomes in council properties.

Council properties should be reserved for low income households and be designated according to need. Nothing more and nothing less. If you needs / circumstance change then this should also change - within reason and with a certain amount of human leeway and understanding (eg kids going to university - rooms can be left 'open' for a limited number of years).

Agree completely