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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to propose some really radical changes to council tax?

167 replies

allswellthatends · 11/01/2023 17:39

Following up on yesterday’s thread about encouraging downsizing (thank you, PoinsettiaPosturing) I’d like to propose a few radical changes to council tax, which we all seem to agree needs reform.

I’d base council tax on the total floor area of the house, ie all the rooms not just the footprint on the land. It would include garages, sheds, and even (perhaps at a different rate) private gardens. It would not be based on number of rooms but on absolute size, so there would be no cliff-edges, just a straight charge per square metre. (With, obviously, variation for land actively under farm cultivation or grazing.)

This would effectively make council tax a milder form of wealth tax or property tax such as they have in North America, but ensure the money stays local instead of ending in central government hands.

It would encourage anyone living in a home larger than needed to downsize (why pick on the elderly?) Living close together not only costs less in services but is better for the environment. It would help meet the government goal or reducing car travel in a fairer way than Oxford's plan to charge for driving out of your 15-minute neighbourhood. It would eliminate the need to target council house tenants with the extra-bedroom charge.

Taxing by living space instead of cost would be a great deal fairer to all regions: people who live in London already pay a disproportionate price for less space, why should they have to pay higher council tax on top of that? After all, more room is a luxury no matter where in the country you live. City residents would still be paying slightly more tax on living space, because city houses involve more corridors and staircases and I'm afraid I'm still taxing that when I become Queen of the World.

Please don’t all start screaming about how much richer Londoners are: they’re not all rich, and this is one reason teachers, nurses, and other essential workers are being priced out – cost-of-living adjustments don’t reflect true costs and could more efficiently rolled into a council tax system. London salaries are not as much higher than in the rest of the country as rents and property prices are; Londoners just pay more of their already-taxed income on housing, and subsidise services for the rest of the country in the process, so why should they be penalised yet again with higher council taxes as well? Like all of us, they already pay more income tax if they earn more and more VAT and stamp duty if they buy more.

But rural and suburban residents too might benefit from more council tax being collected locally to fund the services they use. In Britain people choose to move out because they want bigger houses, and then wail that there are (say) no buses, when the simple fact is that rural residents can't and don’t want to pay the true cost of running buses (and roads, plumbing pipes, and electric wires, and rubbish collection, and wifi signals, etc etc) over areas that are more spread out.

Then (here’s where I’d get really evil): I’d base the council tax on planning permission for the site, even before the building is built. That would give developers a real push to build houses. Westminster has been saying for years they need to stop developers from land-banking to keep housing prices high.

I’ve donned my aluminium-foil helmet. Grin

OP posts:
LlynTegid · 13/01/2023 09:39

I prefer local income tax.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2023 09:45

So people in London who are paid considerably more would be taxed less even though their house was worth lots more than someone in the North on lower wages?

And people who lived in farms and had farmed the land for generations with the farm staying in the family would be forced to sell up and we'd all have an even bigger issue with food security.

And even if you live in the same town but in the really rough area, you could be paying the same as someone from the really nice area, whose house is worth triple because your house is the same size.

I think there may be a few flaws in the idea.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2023 09:47

Chinnn · 12/01/2023 08:20

0.5% of the zoopla value of the house every year. No system is perfect but this is better than any other I have heard of.

Zoopla as a fair and accurate measure to base the taxation system on!!! Omg! Zoopla is barely numerically literate!

maddening · 13/01/2023 09:49

Don't agree with statement in op re those in London being unfairly charged- there is a lot more money spent on London - if I am paying the same as someone in London I expect amazing transport, arts and culture etc invested in my area too.

cantba · 13/01/2023 09:57

London council taxes are cheaper than many other cities.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2023 09:59

maddening · 13/01/2023 09:49

Don't agree with statement in op re those in London being unfairly charged- there is a lot more money spent on London - if I am paying the same as someone in London I expect amazing transport, arts and culture etc invested in my area too.

And career opportunities...

maddening · 13/01/2023 10:02

Agree redtoothbrush, my dbro lives in Oxfordshire (we are northwest and born and brought up northwest also) and the investment in that area is stark compared.to up north, there is much feathering of the southern nests.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 13/01/2023 10:15

maddening · 13/01/2023 10:02

Agree redtoothbrush, my dbro lives in Oxfordshire (we are northwest and born and brought up northwest also) and the investment in that area is stark compared.to up north, there is much feathering of the southern nests.

Totally agree.

EffortlessDesmond · 13/01/2023 14:56

I've always thought the poll tax was the fairest solution, but it provoked riots when it was tried out. There's no easy solution, but that's not an excuse for not seeking a better way.

Lincslady53 · 13/01/2023 15:10

I have a Band E house in Lancashire, my annual council tax is £2,500. Band E in Westminster is £1,050. We have one bus per hour to the nearest town, finishing at 9.00pm, no trains. No underground. So whilst I agree it needs changing, we know that all those in the middle will end up paying more.

Beezknees · 13/01/2023 15:11

It sucks that as a single person I only get a 25% reduction.

hothands · 13/01/2023 15:12

So people in London who are paid considerably more would be taxed less even though their house was worth lots more than someone in the North on lower wages

That's happening at the minute isn't it? Off the back of this thread, I had a look at Westminster council tax. They're paying £600 a year for a band B, whereas I'm paying nearly £1600 for a band B. I'm up north, in an armpit of a town that hasn't had any investment in anything for decades (Labour council, obvs) and all our services are shit.

Throwncrumbs · 13/01/2023 15:34

Abolish council tax benefit then, why should people with 4/5 children in big council/rented places get off paying it, maybe if they had to pay for it out of their own pockets they would stop having children they can’t afford. They want the big houses from people who don’t need them anymore but want it all funded by tax payers. Nope, not moving from my nice big house I’ve worked hard for, Struth the things youngsters come out with nowadays!!

Honper · 13/01/2023 15:46

You only get council tax benefit if you're unemployed or of working age and unable to work though. So most council tenants pay it. Even though they obviously don't own.

MichelleScarn · 13/01/2023 15:47

hothands · 13/01/2023 15:12

So people in London who are paid considerably more would be taxed less even though their house was worth lots more than someone in the North on lower wages

That's happening at the minute isn't it? Off the back of this thread, I had a look at Westminster council tax. They're paying £600 a year for a band B, whereas I'm paying nearly £1600 for a band B. I'm up north, in an armpit of a town that hasn't had any investment in anything for decades (Labour council, obvs) and all our services are shit.

Yep, paying £1590 a year in rural village Scotland, they've shut our library, council activity centre has nothing on! Roads and pavements are an absolute mess but despite being frequently flagged nothing done. 10 miles away in nearest town, same council has copious funds to paint benches, change floral arrangements seasonally, change park equipment frequently, etc.

D20 · 13/01/2023 17:18

hothands · 13/01/2023 15:12

So people in London who are paid considerably more would be taxed less even though their house was worth lots more than someone in the North on lower wages

That's happening at the minute isn't it? Off the back of this thread, I had a look at Westminster council tax. They're paying £600 a year for a band B, whereas I'm paying nearly £1600 for a band B. I'm up north, in an armpit of a town that hasn't had any investment in anything for decades (Labour council, obvs) and all our services are shit.

£600 a year flipping heck I had no idea it was that low! Like @hothands said add another £1k to get less in my area (possibly the same area as you going by the description) yep that’s MORE than a band B pays in Richmond upon Thames.

Obviously the OP doesn’t live in Westminster or she’d be thinking twice about an overhaul 😆

XenoBitch · 13/01/2023 17:26

Throwncrumbs · 13/01/2023 15:34

Abolish council tax benefit then, why should people with 4/5 children in big council/rented places get off paying it, maybe if they had to pay for it out of their own pockets they would stop having children they can’t afford. They want the big houses from people who don’t need them anymore but want it all funded by tax payers. Nope, not moving from my nice big house I’ve worked hard for, Struth the things youngsters come out with nowadays!!

Council tax benefit is vital.
A single person on basic UC in a band A property (in my area anyway) would have a council tax bill of £100 each month (that is with the 25% single person discount)... and they would have to pay it out the £334 a month UC they get... that has to pay for everything expect rent. They would literally be in debt every single month.

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