...to propose some really radical changes to council tax?

[allswellthatends]

Following up on yesterday’s thread about encouraging downsizing (thank you, PoinsettiaPosturing) I’d like to propose a few radical changes to council tax, which we all seem to agree needs reform.

I’d base council tax on the total floor area of the house, ie all the rooms not just the footprint on the land. It would include garages, sheds, and even (perhaps at a different rate) private gardens. It would not be based on number of rooms but on absolute size, so there would be no cliff-edges, just a straight charge per square metre. (With, obviously, variation for land actively under farm cultivation or grazing.)

This would effectively make council tax a milder form of wealth tax or property tax such as they have in North America, but ensure the money stays local instead of ending in central government hands.

It would encourage anyone living in a home larger than needed to downsize (why pick on the elderly?) Living close together not only costs less in services but is better for the environment. It would help meet the government goal or reducing car travel in a fairer way than Oxford's plan to charge for driving out of your 15-minute neighbourhood. It would eliminate the need to target council house tenants with the extra-bedroom charge.

Taxing by living space instead of cost would be a great deal fairer to all regions: people who live in London already pay a disproportionate price for less space, why should they have to pay higher council tax on top of that? After all, more room is a luxury no matter where in the country you live. City residents would still be paying slightly more tax on living space, because city houses involve more corridors and staircases and I'm afraid I'm still taxing that when I become Queen of the World.

Please don’t all start screaming about how much richer Londoners are: they’re not all rich, and this is one reason teachers, nurses, and other essential workers are being priced out – cost-of-living adjustments don’t reflect true costs and could more efficiently rolled into a council tax system. London salaries are not as much higher than in the rest of the country as rents and property prices are; Londoners just pay more of their already-taxed income on housing, and subsidise services for the rest of the country in the process, so why should they be penalised yet again with higher council taxes as well? Like all of us, they already pay more income tax if they earn more and more VAT and stamp duty if they buy more.

But rural and suburban residents too might benefit from more council tax being collected locally to fund the services they use. In Britain people choose to move out because they want bigger houses, and then wail that there are (say) no buses, when the simple fact is that rural residents can't and don’t want to pay the true cost of running buses (and roads, plumbing pipes, and electric wires, and rubbish collection, and wifi signals, etc etc) over areas that are more spread out.

Then (here’s where I’d get really evil): I’d base the council tax on planning permission for the site, even before the building is built. That would give developers a real push to build houses. Westminster has been saying for years they need to stop developers from land-banking to keep housing prices high.

I’ve donned my aluminium-foil helmet.

The riots because poll tax taxed people taxed regardless of their ability to pay.

The old rates system it replaced was based on what a house could be rented out for. Maybe it’s time to revert back to that?

Some London boroughs already have the cheapest Council Tax rates in the country.

@Grumpybutfunny we don’t live in London, instead we are approximately 50 miles always from the centre of London. A small village (circa 2,000 homes), no doctors, dentist and limited public transport. Our road hasn’t been adopted either. I still believe that given there is a national minimum wage, living wage and consistent apprenticeship wages across England, council tax should be ‘levelled up’ so that it is based on size, not value, providing more consistency and provide more funds to help cover the growing cost of social care, for example.

Allergic "I've seen this many times over the years, in Central government, Local government, and in private businesses. Someone comes up with a bright idea, feasibility studies prove that it's actually NOT feasible. Then 10 years later some other person comes up with the SAME bright idea, and you go through it all again. Or even worse the in depth study doesn't take place, the idea is implemented, and it's a complete failure costing time, effort & sometimes worse."

and woe betide anyone who points out it's been done before.

one of the best ideas for council tax reform would be to look at councils waste money.

*how

@allswellthatends
Another good point, Kinnorafron, but actually, it was your choice. You wanted more space, so you moved further out. Definitely your right to choose. Sounds like, though, you could have chosen to live in a smaller place and didn't... your choice.
Up to a point. There is no point at my life when I'd have been able to buy a house or even a flat in London.

Not strictly true.

You can't compare band D tax in Wandsworth (£1227) or Kensington and Chelsea (£1364) with somewhere like Hull (£1541) and say London is cheaper.
The median house in Hull is band A (£1027), in Wandsworth it is band D (£1227) and in Kensington & Chelsea it is band F (£1970).

I think bin a property based council tax for local services (as councils do more than that).

Just have higher general taxation on individuals and businesses and allocate the funds to local areas based on various factors.

Reduce the size of central government and put more money locally. Have strong local accountability- bring back the Audit Commission to properly monitor councils. I think our local politicians should be improved as they are the ones with the greatest impact on our lives (think of the services we use: schools, NHS, bin collection etc, that should all be run locally).

Our government is too centralised. Central government are too far away from people to make sensible decisions and needs slimming down.

Any property based taxes should be on gains from price changes, not annual nonsense charges.

Why do you assume that Londoners pay more in council tax? They don't.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/council-tax-london-pays-20-per-cent-more-north-england-c8ktg8q8x

"the owner of a £28 million Belgravia townhouse, with its own gym, swimming pool, cinema and lift, pays less council tax than the owner of a £240,000 three-bedroom terrace in Oakham, a small town near Leicester"

Also, worth pointing out that council tax is not currently about taxing wealth (as some on here have suggested). If it were, renters would be exempt because the house isn't their asset.

Also, worth pointing out that council tax is not currently about taxing wealth (as some on here have suggested). If it were, renters would be exempt because the house isn't their asset.

Jeez what an administrative nightmare that would be to set up! Where would all the staff and money to measure the square metreage of every property in the land come from?

Four of the ten UK councils with the lowest council tax bills (for a Band D property so comparable) are in London (Westminster, City of London, Wandsworth and Hammersmith & Fulham). Not a single area of London is included in the ten areas with the highest council tax rates. Sorry, but your idea is based on a false assumption about the cost of council tax so it's pretty moot.

Seems to be an excuse for developers to build even smaller houses… English houses are already tiny…

You will never please everyone.
Perhaps councils should offer far fewer free services. Perhaps people should pay for what they need/use.
Then you will have the parents of children who get free services jumping up and down crying “That’s not fair!”
The families of all those whose parents receive care which for by the tax payer crying too.
You can’t one the one hand say people should pay for services such as transport, oh but I don’t want to pay for the transport the council provides to take my child to and from school.
I would be quite happy to see a reduction in my council tax and services reduced. I doubt after much consideration everyone would though. You will never get around the fact that some people take far more from the system than they put into it.
Id be happy not to have my bins emptied in return for a reduction in council tax. I would quite happily take all my rubbish to a collection point. However I can guarantee that those who don’t pay as much tax as I do would be jumping up and down complaining, dating his the council should be paying to empty their bins and why should they have to physically take it somewhere.

Sorry about the typos.

All the stuff about keeping the money local doesn't make sense. Currently council tax only pays for about a quarter of local services anyway. The rest of the cash comes from central government.

Local tax for local people sounds good, but all it means is that central government doesn't redistribute wealth from rich areas to poor ones. This means poor areas end up with worse public services.

New builds in the uk are already the smallest in Europe. I see lots of 5 bed new builds that have a smaller square footage than my 3 bed 1930s house.

anyway, council tax bandings are already based on a market value calculation - so surely that takes into account the size of the property/garden/amenities etc?

Haven’t RTFT so someone’s probably already said this but there used to be a land tax, got taken away by Thatcher I think?

The planning system was based on the twin approach of land tax and planning permission, so when they removed one half with land tax it meant all these developers can hold onto land with no penalty…

Given that most of my council tax goes on social care in my region, I'd say it should be less linked to house size.

Alternatively, govts could find a way to separate the tax we pay that is earmarked for social care, make a National pot for that, reduce CTax overall before better linking it to house size.

Penguins "I would be quite happy to see a reduction in my council tax and services reduced"

same. All the money they are spending doesn't get stuff like road mending done. You take your life in your hands if you're on a double decker bus going in and out of potholes.

I stayed in a hotel for work - very nice - they were hosting a council's "town twinning" event, complete with banquet.

my council spent a fortune on a consultation to prove there were grounds for getting rid of the local library.

they somehow spent £1million tarting up a small area with benches near the high street, then appear amazed that it's a hangout for daytime drunks.

I will say they have been great about sorting flytipping, and problems from a nearby building site.

There is a huge problem. Poor areas get poorer. Social care costs are unfair. Why should I pay more because I can’t afford to live in a posh area, with better facilities, better transport, better green areas, more pleasant, better schools the list is endless.
Some people have been unfairly priced out of naice areas. So they have to live in crappier parts of the country subsidising those who don’t pay their fair share. Paying more and more.

Tenants pay council tax based on the value of a property they dont own

No it needs to be based on how many services you receive and ability to pay. Council tax is grossly unfair and your method is no improvement! A single person living in a village in a property worth 400k shouldn’t have to pay more than a family of 4 working adults in a 3 bedroom flat in a city worth 3 million. No, that isn’t fair. London has some of the lowest council tax rates yet some of the best facilities and highest earnings and capital.