We ride at dawn - for the NHS

[GloGirl]

Seriously, are we the public going to do anything about this? Can we coordinate a mass protest/march? Mini protests outside hospitals? Has everyone been writing to their MP?

I can't read these headlines any more, it's breaking my heart. I was sure during covid it would force the govt to reconsider its treatment of the NHS - that it would force a change in priority for social care, pay, structures, staffing.

How did we hit a new low, and just keep going? Who is with me??

Soundbotes like it’s not underfunded it’s badly managed?

Did it suddenly become badly managed in the last 10 years because these problems did not exist before the Tories took control of government. There is a quantifiable difference in the level of service provided now and 12 years ago. And yes, before somebody mentions labour and PFI that was a terrible idea but it isn’t causing the issues we see now.

The UK spends a lot less on healthcare than other similar countries though:

• Average day-to-day health spending in the UK between 2010 and 2019 was £3,005 per person – 18% below the EU14 average of £3,655.

• If UK spending per person had matched the EU14 average, then the UK would have spent an average of £227bn a year on health between 2010 and 2019 – £40bn higher than actual average annual spending during this period (£187bn).

• Matching spending per head to France or Germany would have led to an additional £40bn and £73bn (21% to 39% increase respectively) of total health spending each year in the UK.

• Over the past decade, the UK had a lower level of capital investment in health care compared with the EU14 countries for which data are available. Between 2010 and 2019, average health capital investment in the UK was £5.8bn a year. If the UK had matched other EU14 countries’ average investment in health capital (as a share of GDP), the UK would have invested £33bn more between 2010 and 2019 (around 55% higher than actual investment during that period).

Source: www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/how-does-uk-health-spending-compare-across-europe-over-the-past-decade

What are the salary equivalents in other healthcare systems similar to our own?

I’m not sure which figure it is but one of the budget figures the government regularly uses for NHS funding increases includes the test and trace and PPE money. The NHS itself never saw that money. It’s probably in an offshore account in the Cayman Islands or somewhere.

Did it suddenly become badly managed in the last 10 years because these problems did not exist before the Tories took control of government

As someone who had 3 unsafe discharges, multiple nights on a corridor trolley and a 6-figure settlement for negligence arising from delayed cancer diagnosis over a 12-month period when Brown was horsing cash at the NHS, I promise they did. I am permanently disabled thanks to the saintly NHS and I’d take France or Germany for healthcare over the UK in a heartbeat.

What are the salary equivalents in other healthcare systems similar to our own?

We have the highest paid GP’s in the world and you’re more likely to be accurately diagnosed by a wizard riding a unicorn.

The NHS is so awash with cash they employ 'Directors of Lived Experience' and suchlike on over £115K pa.

I'm with you OP, wrote to my (Tory) MP last night. That is always worth doing, writing your own letter not just signing petitions etc.

The mainstream media like BBC etc seem to take their agenda from Facebook & Twitter more than they probably should IMO. But in this instance it is probably worth sharing posts and articles eg from NHS workers and making more noise. EG Laura Kuennesberg gave Sunak some stick over this at the weekend, didn't she?

Sometimes really big protests do make a difference - the first Extinction Rebellion one did for example, at least that;'s what I heard from a civil servant at the time. Others not so much perhaps - I know the big Remain marches did sod all for example, though I still went and enjoyed them!

I would be prepared to make a similar effort for a Save the NHS march (3 hr train etc) because it is equally important (and of course part of the same frustrating shitshow, but that's probably for another thread!)

www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/how-to-organise-a-protest/

how to organise a protest.

I can't find data to agree with you, can you please provide?

There isn’t the money or resources for unlimited ‘support’ every time somebody asks for it. In many cases people would rather pop costly pills than make basic lifestyle changes. They need to be instructed to do the latter. We’re all adults, life isn’t free, you have to want to be well.

"Demanding a simple solution (like "better funding!") to a complex systemic problem is exactly why we're in this mess - we, the British public, allowed all of the political discussion of the NHS to be reduced to soundbites and slogans, when any sustainable solution must be far more nuanced and far-reaching than that."

I've clearly outlined that I want to support the NHS as a lay person. I don't have the answers.

I'm not a mechanic but when I drive past a car on the road and see it mangled and on fire, I can tell it's fucking broken.

I am NOT saying hard cash is the only solution. If I threw £10,000 at the burning car it wouldn't turn off it's flames and drive itself home. The only people wanging on about how "funding" wont resolve the NHS crisis are those trying to pretend that money wont help. I have said better funding. As per my first post, priority for social care, pay, structures, staffing. But I am not convinced by those who parrot that giving the NHS more money would be wasteful.

"You have to want to be well" 😂😂

I agree. The NHS wasn’t perfect 12 years ago but 95% of people who went to A&E were seen and treated in 4 hours. The difference between then and now is staggering. Even if funding now catches up to where it should be, it will take years to make up for the decade of underfunding. Lots of people are making a good point about people being healthier in general, but public health budgets have been cut by about 25% over the last decade, which has led to stalling improvements in life expectancy and a host of other issues.

The NHS needs putting out of its misery. It's hugely wasteful and bureaucratic and chomps through money like nobody's business. It needs to be redesigned by suitably qualified people who are in a position to know exactly what needs to be done. Look at European models which are more functional than ours and deliver value for money.

Get rid of staff who are poorly functioning as well.

Social care needs fixing before we move onto the NHS. When a sink is blocked, you have to unblock the pipe before you can clear the water and then clean the sink. Modern convalescent facilities for those that aren't quite able to live independently, but don't need high level hospital care is one small start

Source please!

Completely agree

Imagine the cost of redesigning the nhs - the consultants, the redundancies, the procurement, the mistakes, the profits private companies need - and the level of service you would get while the redesign was being implemented.

Interestingly I am about to start an apprenticeship within my NHS research role that is going to redesign some parts of the healthcare system - I am doing a PGDip in Systems Thinking in Practice (Professional) award. I have been recruited to redesign from within. A scorched earth approach is not always necessary as there are parts of the NHS that work well (particularly population level public health interventions) and implementing what works well and getting the uptake and spread right in the system is a step to improvement,

where does it all end though?

we just keep throwing money at it, never reforming it
anyone who even vaguely criticises the sacred cow is consider a Tory shill
this is all just ridiculous

as a precious poster said, the best thing we can do (imo) is try to limit our own need to use it. Lose weight, healthier choices, not calling 111 because you’ve stubbed your toe and exaggerate

That is really cool! And you're right, it doesn't need wiping out and starting again.

One thing that always bugs me is the amount of time and resources that go into bidding for a service - especially against private firms - only for the process to start again. The NHS isn't a business, and that model really needs to stop.

I work in Theatres. We have had 3 patients in the last week who nearly didn't make it.... and still are critically ill ..... because of A&E being rammed, no beds for them to go too... and no Theatre available to operate.

It is truly frightening currently

we just keep throwing money at it, never reforming it
anyone who even vaguely criticises the sacred cow is consider a Tory shill
this is all just ridiculous

And anyone who says it needs more money is just "throwing money at it, never reforming it".
Is reformation free?

Let's compromise - those on the left will stop accusing you of being Tory Shills for criticising the NHS. Will you stop saying we're wasteful by believing the NHS needs more cash?

@SafeMove

That's really interesting. I participated very peripherally in the vaccine rollout (I work in the voluntary sector) and was beyond impressed by the organisation and goodwill and collective ability of an already-stretched health service. I can see that part functions incredibly well.

I often think part of the problem is a lack of wellness/preventive care service. Surely it costs much more to treat someone once they've already developed an illness or a long-term disability or condition? I disagree with the PPs who say people should use the system less--I actually think it should be set up so it's used more (and is more responsive) to head off preventable/treatable conditions. Surely if that functioned better the hospitals and A&Es would be freed up (although not discounting the bed-blocking, social care issues)?

I really notice in my work how the lack of front end care impacts people without resources. I'm often shocked when I see their age as they look so much older.