Page 9 | To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

Saysomething1234 · 2023-01-04T21:38:13+00:00

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement? We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot. AIBU?

MissConductUS · 04/01/2023 23:04

I read politics extensively

Then why were you so wildly wrong about the amount of aid the UK has given Ukraine?

Turefu · 04/01/2023 23:05

starfro · 04/01/2023 22:40

We agreed to provide assistance (in the event of aggression) to Ukraine in 1994 in exchange for them giving up their Nuclear weapons.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Doesn’t it work other way round too? Why there were talks about Ukraine joining NATO? That would be very dangerous for Russia, West gaining upper hand. Russians had their reasons to be scared and attacked first.

DanseAvecLesLoups · 04/01/2023 23:05

theworldhas · 04/01/2023 22:40

Many predicted NATO expansionism would lead to war.

Strobe Talbott, deputy secretary of state, similarly described the Russian attitude. “Many Russians see Nato as a vestige of the cold war, inherently directed against their country. They point out that they have disbanded the Warsaw Pact, their military alliance, and ask why the west should not do the same.” It was an excellent question, and neither the Clinton administration nor its successors provided even a remotely convincing answer.

George Kennan, the intellectual father of America’s containment policy during the cold war, perceptively warned in a May 1998 New York Times interview about what the Senate’s ratification of Nato’s first round of expansion would set in motion. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” Kennan stated. ”I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.”

He was right, but US and Nato leaders proceeded with new rounds of expansion, including the provocative step of adding the three Baltic republics. Those countries not only had been part of the Soviet Union, but they had also been part of Russia’s empire during the Czarist era. That wave of expansion now had Nato perched on the border of the Russian Federation.

Moscow’s patience with Nato’s ever more intrusive behavior was wearing thin. The last reasonably friendly warning from Russia that the alliance needed to back off came in March 2007, when Putin addressed the annual Munich security conference. “Nato has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. Nato expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?”

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

Russia’s invasion is wrong, but the West deliberately broke its promises and continually pushed Russia’s buttons and here we are.

You do realise that it was largely the former Warsaw pact counties wanting to join NATO? Unsurprisingly after 40 odd years of control and oppression from Moscow they wanted to tilt their futures to the west, EU and NATO. Why shouldn't the likes of Poland and the Baltic States want to move out of Russia's self proclaimed sphere of influence. Do you really think the Baltic States would be safer from Russian aggression if they were non NATO members? Do you even care?

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:06

DrWhoNowww · 04/01/2023 23:03

Wait, actually, don’t bother responding.

Anyone who uses the word sheeple to denigrate people who have a differing opinion to themselves isn’t worth a discussion.

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added to oxford dictionary in 2013 - why cant i use it? several people have no issues in attacking me on the thread. why did you not call them out?

sheeple
/ˈʃiːpl/
noun
people compared to sheep in being docile, foolish, or easily led.
"by the time the sheeple wake up and try to change things, it will be too late"

OP posts:

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:06

MissConductUS · 04/01/2023 23:04

I read politics extensively

Then why were you so wildly wrong about the amount of aid the UK has given Ukraine?

because i understand the concept of second order effects.

OP posts:

SueVineer · 04/01/2023 23:06

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 22:54

Falkland islands, if you must ask. if it saves the rest of the country.

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Falkland Islands are not part of the uk though.

ultimately we can’t afford not to support the Ukrainians at this stage. If Russia win that will have huge global consequences. That’s why the war is so important and why we need to support Ukraine. It’s not for the good of the Ukrainian people- let’s not kid ourselves. We did nothing for the georgians, Chechnyans, etx

Greenshake · 04/01/2023 23:07

overworkedovertaxed · 04/01/2023 23:01

@Greenshake Because it might anger a nuclear power?

There was a little matter of Russian missiles on Cuba that didn't end well. Would the US be happy with Mexico or Canada hosting the Chinese military or would they be unwise to build such alliances?

Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan show how adding enormous amounts of military hardware and regime change work really well.

That’s a reductive and inadequate argument

JassyRadlett · 04/01/2023 23:09

Appeasement of Putin hasn't done much to stop Russian expansionism. What's your red line, OP, in terms of Putin's goal to reunite 'greater Russia'? Russian irredentism is nothing new, and is a massively destabilising force. What are you willing to let them have, in the name of marginally cheaper energy for the next few years?

And what impact do you think further appeasement would have on China and its ambitions?

Being dependent on a despot for energy was always a risky proposition. Europe got addicted to cheap Russian gas, despite all the warnings that Russia would use it as an economic weapon. Putting that power over us back in the hands of a country whose strategic aims are directly opposed to our own doesn't feel very smart given that European
gas prices are already starting to stabilise, Nord Stream is permanently fucked and we are on a trajectory away from fossil fuels anyway. The reason our prices are so high is because we're ridiculously reliant on gas, and fossil fuel prices will always be able to be manipulated by those who have the most fossil fuels.

So we're at a fork in the road: we can convince all of Europe that we need to say sorry to that nice Mr Putin and can we have our cheap gas back please and yes we'll rebuild the pipelines at our own expense. Or we can decide to get out of fossil fuels in favour of cheaper energy sources that aren't reliant on high levels of imported fuels.

Gas prices were soaring before the war - that's why so many energy suppliers went bust. The structure of the global economy means they're probably not likely to go back to pre-Covid levels any time soon, especially with China ending its zero Covid policy. Cosying up to Putin again in the hopes of pre-2021 gas prices is a pipe dream.

ilovesooty · 04/01/2023 23:10

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 22:31

Please learn to accept differing views. your inability to discuss something and resort to asking me to leave the UK only shows your inability to process differing opinions.

should everyone who disagrees with this uk spending on the war leave? all of us should be stripped of British citizenship?

ffs

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If you really thought people should be open to accepting your "differing views" you wouldn't have found it necessary to name change.

Needtoseethatbiggerpicture · 04/01/2023 23:10

avoidable deaths in NHS due to lack of money are also real people dying - british citizens

just how many British citizens do you think will die if we allow Putin to do what he wants?

You ever been to either or both Argentina or the Falklands, OP? The people on the Islands are as British as someone born and bred in London. Why would you not defend them?

JassyRadlett · 04/01/2023 23:11

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:06

because i understand the concept of second order effects.

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<cough>China<cough>

sunshineandsuddenshowers · 04/01/2023 23:12

That’s what Chamberlain said in 1938. Turned out that the fate of Czechoslovakia was our problem too.
we def can’t afford to keep subsidising oil companies and companies like Amazon tho! I’m sure we can find some stuff to agree on, that we can’t afford - but the defence of Ukraine is not one of those things.

PineCone74 · 04/01/2023 23:13

ilovesooty · 04/01/2023 23:10

If you really thought people should be open to accepting your "differing views" you wouldn't have found it necessary to name change.

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Indeed!

Mulhollandmagoo · 04/01/2023 23:14

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 22:18

because of short sightedness of politicians to fight a ruinous war - also because diplomacy doesn't sell in the public's eyes, aggressive right wing bravado macho-ism does (as can be seen clearly in this thread) where everything is black and white

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I'm sorry.....you're calling other posters right wing??? Sounds like you turned to the right and took a running jump off the wing! Let me guess OP, you want your country back? Britain is for the British? 🙄

Also, please stop bringing up the energy crisis and blaming Ukraine, the energy companies have made far more in profit off our backs than the government has spent on supporting Ukraine. If you want to blame anyone for your massive leccy bill, blame them, the ultra rich who have spotted an opportunity to become even richer at our expense!

Soothsayer1 · 04/01/2023 23:14

We are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea😐

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:14

JassyRadlett · 04/01/2023 23:09

Appeasement of Putin hasn't done much to stop Russian expansionism. What's your red line, OP, in terms of Putin's goal to reunite 'greater Russia'? Russian irredentism is nothing new, and is a massively destabilising force. What are you willing to let them have, in the name of marginally cheaper energy for the next few years?

And what impact do you think further appeasement would have on China and its ambitions?

Being dependent on a despot for energy was always a risky proposition. Europe got addicted to cheap Russian gas, despite all the warnings that Russia would use it as an economic weapon. Putting that power over us back in the hands of a country whose strategic aims are directly opposed to our own doesn't feel very smart given that European
gas prices are already starting to stabilise, Nord Stream is permanently fucked and we are on a trajectory away from fossil fuels anyway. The reason our prices are so high is because we're ridiculously reliant on gas, and fossil fuel prices will always be able to be manipulated by those who have the most fossil fuels.

So we're at a fork in the road: we can convince all of Europe that we need to say sorry to that nice Mr Putin and can we have our cheap gas back please and yes we'll rebuild the pipelines at our own expense. Or we can decide to get out of fossil fuels in favour of cheaper energy sources that aren't reliant on high levels of imported fuels.

Gas prices were soaring before the war - that's why so many energy suppliers went bust. The structure of the global economy means they're probably not likely to go back to pre-Covid levels any time soon, especially with China ending its zero Covid policy. Cosying up to Putin again in the hopes of pre-2021 gas prices is a pipe dream.

You make interesting points. I do think the world is moving towards multi polarity and the russia-china nexus wont just go away because we dont like it.

China is going to be the largest economy in the world within decades. I dont think our fight in Ukraine is changing that. They have different values, and we wont be comfortable with them, but that wont matter.

at some point we will have to make peace with it. because economics will trump everything and europe (incl UK) will not have the wealth to defend things on the basis of morals.

OP posts:

ImAvingOops · 04/01/2023 23:14

Chamberlain gets a bad press but it was sensible to keep Britain out of war for so long, as the country was not in a position to fight another war any earlier. It's a good thing to try to maintain peace if at all possible. Sometimes it becomes apparent that war cannot be avoided, but often it can be!

SueVineer · 04/01/2023 23:15

sunshineandsuddenshowers · 04/01/2023 23:12

That’s what Chamberlain said in 1938. Turned out that the fate of Czechoslovakia was our problem too.
we def can’t afford to keep subsidising oil companies and companies like Amazon tho! I’m sure we can find some stuff to agree on, that we can’t afford - but the defence of Ukraine is not one of those things.

Emm we are not subsidizing either Amazon or oil companies- what a weird thing to say. But absolutely we cannot afford to give up Ukraine- it is Czechoslovakia in the ww2 scenario. We should probably have stood up before now but we didn’t so we have uK now

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:17

ilovesooty · 04/01/2023 23:10

If you really thought people should be open to accepting your "differing views" you wouldn't have found it necessary to name change.

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name change is the same reason the 30% who agree with me arent posting

because the woke liberals will eat anyone alive who disagrees with them

and for those asking - yes i voted for brexit. and yes you are in the minority. deal with it. leave britain if you dont like the views of the majority as some of you have suggested to me

OP posts:

Greenshake · 04/01/2023 23:18

OP, you are embarrassing yourself more and more with each post

SueVineer · 04/01/2023 23:19

ImAvingOops · 04/01/2023 23:14

Chamberlain gets a bad press but it was sensible to keep Britain out of war for so long, as the country was not in a position to fight another war any earlier. It's a good thing to try to maintain peace if at all possible. Sometimes it becomes apparent that war cannot be avoided, but often it can be!

He gets a bad press because he choose to appease Hitler. If we had stood up earlier the fight would have been easier and quicker and far fewer people would have been murdered.

are you really actually defending appeasing Hitler?

MissConductUS · 04/01/2023 23:20

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:06

because i understand the concept of second order effects.

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So you pulled "hundreds of billions" out of your arse. Got it.

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:21

MissConductUS · 04/01/2023 23:20

So you pulled "hundreds of billions" out of your arse. Got it.

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ugh..read the link (reposting)

edition.cnn.com/2022/09/08/business/liz-truss-energy-price-cap-europe/index.html

OP posts:

SueVineer · 04/01/2023 23:21

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 23:17

name change is the same reason the 30% who agree with me arent posting

because the woke liberals will eat anyone alive who disagrees with them

and for those asking - yes i voted for brexit. and yes you are in the minority. deal with it. leave britain if you dont like the views of the majority as some of you have suggested to me

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I doubt brexit supporters are in a majority any longer so off you toddle if that’s your logic

Itshouldntbethisway · 04/01/2023 23:22

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet, exactly this, brown people's lives simply don't matter as much to the West. No sacrifices for them. I recall the racism suffered by brown students in Ukraine at the start of the war by the very same refugees we are helping now. Africa will not forget.