To think there has been a shift in social attitudes towards the role of 16/17 year olds over the last few years

[Toomuchisnotenough]

The governments new plan to make maths/English compulsory until age 18 has got me thinking about something. All the opposition to this plan has been based on it being unworkable/unnecessary not that you should be able at 16/17 to pick your own subjects. Last year I remember the marriage bill to raise the age to 18 and remove the right for 16/17 year olds to get married. This was met with overwhelming support and (including on MN) it was almost universally agreed that age 16/17 is far too young to be married. On MN a few years ago (probably about before 2018 time) any 16/17 year old who was restricted by their parents rules almost always the response would be that the OP was BU and should allow them to do what they want. Recently, it seems on more threads that the attitude is that 16/17 year olds are children and should be restricted by their parents still - often the “brain doesn’t develop until 25” is used as justification. Of course, mumsnet is not a hive mind. However, it is representative of a large section of public opinion and when over and over again the same narratives come up on threads vs what was said maybe five years ago I think that does demonstrate something about social attitudes. I don’t necessarily think this is a bad change but I just find it interesting how attitudes seem to have changed so much in just a few years. Aibu to think there has been a big change in social attitudes towards 16/17 year olds in the last few years?

I agree there has been a shift. I feel pretty morally neutral about it but it’s definitely there.

It feels like a few decades ago (90s/00s maybe 10s) a 16 or 17 year old would have a lot of freedom to go out with their mates, dating, maybe get their own flat or get a job if they’re fed up with school. Maybe be mates with an older group of friends. Have their own car and drive themselves to college etc (does this still happen?)

It seems to me that all older teenagers (15-17) seem to have less freedom these days though. Albeit I have seen a limited sample.

I don’t necessarily agree that if two 17-year-olds want to be daft and get married, they shouldn’t be allowed to get on with it. You live and you learn. Based on the “brain not developed before 25” theory I shouldn’t have got married, had my first child, and a whole host of other things I did in my early 20s! (None of which were bad choices btw!)

Could this be part of the general societal shift towards keeping young adults younger for longer (young people living with parents longer, advised to put off kids/marriage until older etc?). Reminds me of a thread yesterday about the 29-year-old BIL who still lived with his mum
and left wee on the toilet seat at other people’s houses. Maybe he’d have been better off moving out at 17 and supporting himself/a girlfriend. Your brain can’t develop if you never have to use it!

There probably has been a shift, and I think that's a good thing. The science on brain development has become better understood in the past few years. It wasn't that long ago that we didn't know that the brain wasn't fully developed until about age 25.

I dont agree with forcing teens to study maths until 18 exactly but i have always thought it odd that to some extent we expect 16 year olds to choose their entire futures. By this i mean they are expected fo choose their 3 a level subjects at 16 which will inform their degree options afterwards and therefore their choice of career. I know 3 friends who have absolutely bankrupt themselves in their late 20s redoing alevels in evenings and then going back to uni full time for 3 years in order to do a degree (one midwife, 2 teachers so the degree is needed). Its so odd that we expect 15/16 year olds to have a career path mapped out

We've had issues with the NHS assigning under 16s to paediatric care and 18s and over to adult care. The areas we've dealt with don't seem to have a consistent policy for 16 and 17 year olds. So not just individuals that don't quite know how to treat them!

I think the general infantilising of young people has led to less confidence - they lack a lot of general independence skills compared to previous generations which seems to leave them with the idea that 'someone else will do it' . My observation based on working with 16+ teens

When I was a teen, pretty much every one at school had a part time job - even if their parents earned good money. It was seen as part of growing up - good experience, earn own (drinking) money etc.

These days, I come across so many parents who discourage their teens from working and pay them generous pocket money - and buy them a car a decent amount of the time.

Before the 2nd World War, school leaving age was 14. Now its effectively 18. Society's expectations evolve constantly.

One of my biggest Mumsnet shocks is how much input some parents expect to have into University choices for example. My very involved parents.. . Made sure I could get to open days and interviews, read my personal statement to check for grammar etc, and commiserated and congratulated me for my rejections etc.

This is so true. I really want my DS 15 to get a job when he's 16. But I'm not sure how it will be viewed?
He'll need one if he wants any decent spending money.

There’s been a big shift with every generation since the war in my opinion. I was talking to my Gran last week - teen during the war. The norm then was to live at home with parents until you got married, unless you were one of the very few who could afford university. She moaned her husband left home to marry her when he was 26 and he never learnt to cook and expected her to do everything. She’s very impressed my husband cooks and cleans.

in the 60’s I think free love made a massive change to society. Suddenly it’s ok to shack up and leave home unmarried. Coupled with more young people going off to uni to study. Teens rolled up skirts and off they went.

Maybe it’s only now we are realising that our grandparents had some wisdom in their old fashioned ways. 16 is too young to make some decisions such as marriage. I certainly think back with horror at what our parents let us do in the 90’s - off to house parties with a crate of beers at 14, didn’t bat an eyelid to us going out on the town drinking at 16. We got in a lot of mess doing that.

I think this is an area (or possibly a school) thing.
Just about everyone in Year 12 at my DD's school has a part time job.
At my niece's school I'm told that virtually no one does.

Mid 70s as a young teenager living in a seaside town, most of us had holiday jobs from 12/13 onwards. Nobody really adhered to the child labour laws.
Kids nowadays seem.to spend many more years being supported by their parents . Those not in further education seem to only want to work part time. I got a Leo Sayer LP for my 18th. Now it seems to be a car, at the very least.
Too many IMHO, seem to be going to university for some pointless degree racking up 1000s in debt. The clever ones are those who take up apprenticeships in plumbing, electrics, hairdressing, tailoring/dress making.
They will never be out of work!!

The maths up to 18 thing won’t happen.
It is purely to distract people from talking about the NHS, cost of living and immigration crises. Classic government spin.

@PuttingDownRoots i had a different experience with my parents expectations for university tho, and that was 15 years ago. They ‘shortlisted’ some I was allowed to visit, they basically chose my course for me (which I’ve ended up in a field/ job I hate) and came and stayed overnight etc took me to interviews. So completely involved.

I feel like I had a lot more confidence and independence at that age than teenagers now do.
When I was in sixth form, a lot of my mates were living in flats with boyfriends/girlfriends/friends and had full time jobs. You don't see that now.

I think you are right OP to say there has been a shift, some of which I agree with (minimum age of marriage for example), others not.

And it is disparate and inconsistent, for example in Scotland it could be that you could legally change your gender before you can drive a car.

Another major outlier is that 16&17yos can join the Armed Forces in the UK. Although not go to war zones.

I’m 34. At 16 I was clubbing every weekend. Having casual sex, drinking too much alcohol.

I was also working full time in a solicitors office and making decent enough money. I still think it was too much too young. I think doing that at 18 would have been more appropriate I guess.

It's crazy to have compulsory Maths until 18. Kids who have no aptitude or interest in Maths would just be bored out of their mind and disruptive. I don't even think Maths should be compulsory at GCSE level. Once kids are able to recognise the numbers, count and do basic arithmetic, let them move onto vocational courses and get them into the workforce, earning money and paying taxes, not stuck in classrooms making things difficult for everyone.

I agree OP. I’m 36. Most of my friends had part time jobs at 14/15, I was most irritated my mum wouldn’t let me get one til I had done my GCSEs so almost 17! From 16 I was out in pubs/bars/house parties most weekends, parents often giving me a small amount of alcohol to take or we bought it ourselves. This was very normal amongst my group of friends. Now on here people often seem shocked at 15/16 year olds having a single drink at home let alone under 18s drinking outside the house! And I guess stricter laws and ID checks mean underage pubbing and clubbing is far rarer. Hardly any 14-18 year olds seem to have jobs.

im a maths teacher (primary) and I disagree with everyone studying maths to 18. If everyone could just do what they are supposed to achieve by the time they leave primary school, they’d be alright in the real world I think.

That’s because the price of rent, bills, fuel, food etc is sky high and wages have not risen in proportion. They can’t afford it!

I think it might be a UK thing as where I grew up (Commonwealth country), we were still 'children' until 18 and given the freedom within boundaries and I honestly think I had a better childhood and young adulthood because of it. I was allowed to mature without having to take on responsibility/ behaviour I wasn't ready for. When I moved here, I was horrified at some of the behaviour from teenagers (family members) and that their parents had no idea where they were/ what they were up to and weren't phased in the slightest about it. When I married my DH and were discussing having children, I said even then that there was no way any child of ours would be gadding about the city overnight with their mates when they were a teenager!

Sorry, my post sounds really judgy! I don't mean it to - when I say horrified by behaviour of teenagers, I mean the freedom and then the problems that came with that freedom and them not knowing how to handle it plus the responsibilities placed on them - again with them not having the maturity, knowledge and skills to handle it then.

At school we were taught it's about the increasing complexity of society. And it's true. When all you had to do was farm some crops adulthood came earlier - although I do boggle at the odd teenage monarch who managed to not mess everything up - that is complex! But even then winning a battle is less complex than trying to oversee Brexit and the NHS.

Longer than the last few years, about the last decade attitudes have changed. I do get the 'brain doesn't mature until later' things, but I really dislike an attitude that seems to have built up in some quarters that anyone (or a lot of people) under 18 aren't responsible or capable.

I first noticed it in the 2012 Olympics when there was an article about whoever was providing a lot of Olympic support services (someone like Capita) was shock horror prepared to have '16 and 17 year olds do bag searches'. Now, Capita definitely was incompetent in many ways, but I remember it really bothering me how some parts of the media wrote as if searching a bag was beyond a 16-17yo's capability.

I think that over time, we have infantilised young adults and that has impacted on how we manage and enable young people transitioning to adulthoood as well. And of course there is a massive disparity in how people mature

Its really common on this site (and some others) to use the information about brain development as a reason why this cant happen or these decisions cant be taken, etc etc. But its not a simplistic as that, there is an evolutionary reason why our brains are more elastic in early adulthood because it means that we take more risks, are more impulsive are more able to think outside of established norms or routines. Given that life expectancy may have been around 35/40 in early humans, that makes perfect sense in that from the late teens onward, you would be procreating, building your family, developing your strength and skill without thinking 'oh I might hurt myself, better be careful and not chase that bison'

But as per usual modern people have used it to mean 'dont give a 20 year old any responsibility, their brain isnt finished growing'.

What do they think happened for centuries where from teens onward people were effectively adults, working and having relationships as adults, having children and families,, building business and careers and responsible positions.