If the Tories are responsible for the failing NHS, why is the picture no better in Wales under Labour?

[Namechanged2023]

I have never voted Tory, never will. I don’t support anything they stand for.

But I don’t buy this narrative.

The NHS has been rubbish for years. I work in a different public service, that is also rubbish. Too many people talking instead of doing, no performance management, too much leeway with full paid sick leave.

I’ve had mixed experience of the NHS like most. Some excellent staff who want to help and save time, some of the same role who do things completely differently, in a much more time consuming and resource intensive way (think simple tasks like administering antibiotics to a small baby). Some really empathetic, compassionate staff; some the complete opposite. Proactive GPs, and some who refuse to budge.

Their processes are just ridiculous though. I have waited hours to be discharged. Everything has to be done on paper. Letters sent out for everything. Phone lines only open for 2 hours on 3 days a week, so impossible to get through.

Because this is change by stealth. Nu Labour actually started this 20 years ago. Why do you think anything happens by accident or without political consensus?

Yes agree with pp, Tony Blair set the ball rolling.

Because Tory haters are blind to the fact that labour screwed over the NHS too.

Drakeford has the power to raise taxes in Wales, he could do this and allocate more funds, but he’d rather tell the world how bad the Tories are.

Because the NHS as a model isn't sustainable. The unpalatable truth is that we have a huge number of people living beyond the age nature intended, and as is the system can't support them as well as provide its other functions. Unless serious discussions and changes are made about this, the only other real alternative is people start paying their way at point of use (which will leave many unable to access healthcare). No politican will ever say it, but realistically do we prioritise people bed bound (or in a cycle of readmission) being kept alive with meds and machines with no quality of life just because we can, or do we prioritise supporting the wider population in accessing the care they need and it remaining free at point of use.

The NHS is unfit for purpose in its current state. It needs dismantling and starting again based on the successful health care provided in many European countries.

The problem is that if the Tories do it, Labour and their supporters will have a field day with the press. If Labour do it, the unions will crucify them for their betrayal.

The NHS has become some sacred cow and is doomed to failure.

I agree, we need to move to an Australian system where funding increases service and competition

@Snowmoab i think this is one of many issues with it, victim of it’s own success. I work in the nhs and the amount of people having invasive procedures, cancer care etc etc in their 80s and 90s is crazy and usually not to any great ends either. Then we have those suffering with dementia sitting in homes not knowing who anyone is, becoming frightened and agitated, some nursed in bed with no real movement having to be turned by staff etc horrible. I’ll be getting my advanced directive in order

Wow the Tories are getting desperate this morning 😂

The NHS has gradually declined because technology and medicine gradually got better and people gradually started to live longer, (all of which costs money). It's that simple. Then we had covid and war in Europe which escalated the issues by putting enormous pressure on our resources. It's bugger all to do with politics. I'm a labour voter but not stupid enough to think that if they were in power that anything would be different.

It’s terrible in Scotland too. A decade of Scottish nationalist party fiddling and fiddling, before that liberal labour, labour - not a Conservative in sight and no better. SG claim the recent tax increases up here will be ring fenced for the nhs in Scotland. Aye, right as we say. Delighted to be proven wrong though.

@Trainbear yep I’m in Scotland and it’s maybe only slightly better than England having worked on both sides. It will be interesting to see if social care improves when they bring in this new national care service but it won’t solve the problem of not enough young people in rural areas to look after the older people and people who come here to retire

Do you live in Wales?

Also you do realise it’s possible for someone to hate the Tories and Labour with equal passion right? They are both useless and controlled by outside sources.

Because it's nothing to do with party politics, & everything to do with the fact that the NHS structure & model is no longer fit for purpose. Should have been (part) privatised decades ago, & most staff know it.

It is very misplaced to think that Labour will uphold NHS in its current form.

They introduced private providers, and massively, massively increased PFI

That doesn't mean btw that I'm defending the Tories.#

I'm pointing out that the NHS isn't safe with either

This isn't a joke.

And trying to reduce the complexities of the NHS to a 'nasty Tory' issue means that it's doomed whoever comes next.

NHS isn't safe with either of the major parties.

It has a total gap in proper leadership (loads of ever more senior managers, but no leaders - and its culture can't see the difference)

Wales isn't a separate country, can't control its borders, its own immigration policies or reverse Brexit.
Yes can raise some taxes but with no other controls on fiscal policy i.e raise lower interest rates or have its own central bank and currency, how would that work?

We are one UK and Governed as such.

We should make comparisons with other European countries, that the Tories wont do that is very telling.

The NHS used to work, might not have been brilliant but no one waited days for an ambulance or died waiting outside AE because there was no staff to treat them.

We ve had 12 years of the Conservatives, if its not on them, what exactly is the point of a Government or even another General Election?

It already is part privatised.
Look at dentistry, private providers with copayments. How's that working out?
Much of the blockages in hospitals are because of care packages/homes. Again, private, for profit businesses.
I don't know why people still have the idea, state = badly run, private = well run, when its show time and time again not to be the case.

I find this mindset absolutely fascinating. This deranged belief that anyone who might think differently from you can only be a paid shill. I only ever see it on the left. It’s bizarre.

@VikingVolva I don't think people are particularly bothered about whether the NHS is privatised or where they get treatment.
What matters is results and cost.

Go have 30 Germany style community health insurance funds.. who cares!

But don't make me die in an ambulance or a 4 day wait for one (as in Cornwall recently) or 2 years to have an hernia op.

I judge on results, if i have a unreliable car or a builder, i get rid.. atm we have a unreliable Government, they had 12 years to improve things, they have failed, time to get rid too.

This. You think Matt Hancock, was bad? Check out Eluned Morgan, Health Secretary for Wales. Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board in N Wales has had £122m 'gone missing' and investigators brought in.

More fantastic work by Tony Blair sadly.

People spin their own narratives about the NHS, stories they’ve told themselves which often have a grain of truth but aren’t ‘the truth’

Narratives like

1. people live too long and medical care is too advanced these days. The NHS model isn’t fit for the modern world. Except around the time the Tories came in, the NHS was rated by the WHO as the most efficient model in the world for outcomes for cost.
2. No matter how much money we chuck at the NHS, it’s inefficient systems that let it down. Except a. We don’t chuck money at the NHS, we spend a lower percentage of GDP per person than almost any other developed nation including the US where the system is predominantly private and b. It’s not particularly inefficient statistically or wasn’t until recently
3. There’s too many admin staff and not enough doctors and nurses. Actually there’s a severe shortage of admin staff despite them being what makes it more efficient
4. Patients using wrong services/missing their GP appointments/being too fat/smoking/wanting IVF are the problem. No this is what a health service should be able to manage.

The real truth is the NHS is currently screwed because of two reasons
A. Chronic long term underfunding. If you want a European style system or to improve the current system, you have to pay for it. It’s the elephant in the room but the reality is that we have not funded the NHS as well as other countries fund health for decades. The fact that we’ve scraped by for so long is a testament to the efficiency of the system.

B. Brexit. Brexit impacted the NHS directly in terms of loss of staff that’s probably recoverable from not least if wages raise and we can target recruiting abroad. More significantly though it impacted it in the loss of a massive minimum wage, unqualified workforce who were providing basic care to an increasing number of elderly in their own homes and care homes. That care prevented numerous admissions for falls/UTIs etc and enabled speedier discharge. Without the workforce the NHS is fucked so we need to address that either by improving wages and working conditions in care or looking to allow high rates of immigration again to obtain a low wage workforce to address this need.

Healthcare in Wales is dire but it also has been long term underfunded and Wales is a poor country so there’s less resource to pull even if they chose to and Brexit has hit the care workforce hard everywhere,

Im not sure Labour can improve things unless they can robustly address the Brexit issue everyone tiptoes around and are prepared to raise taxes. Not sure either is on their agenda.

Exactly this and DM journalists.
People can blame Labour all they want, however a&e wait times fmwas under 6 hours as opposed to over 18 now!
Anyway, at least sunak has his priorities right...let's talk about maths until kids teach 18 😫

people live too long and medical care is too advanced these days. The NHS model isn’t fit for the modern world. Except around the time the Tories came in, the NHS was rated by the WHO as the most efficient model in the world for outcomes for cost.

What's efficiency got to do with an ever increasing aged population (of which has expanded rapidly in the past decade)? The model isn't fit for the demographics currently of this country, nothing about the wider world.

NHS isn't safe with either of the major parties.
I believe when Labour left office we had the shortest waiting times, highest user satisfaction and were ranked on many international measures, the best run health service in the world. They had turned this around from the shambles they inherited from the previous Tory government and had largely solved the problem, simply by spending more money.
I'm not even a Labour voter btw, but to claim it wasn't better under Labour simply isn't true.