If the Tories are responsible for the failing NHS, why is the picture no better in Wales under Labour?

[Namechanged2023]

I have never voted Tory, never will. I don’t support anything they stand for.

But I don’t buy this narrative.

The NHS has been rubbish for years. I work in a different public service, that is also rubbish. Too many people talking instead of doing, no performance management, too much leeway with full paid sick leave.

I’ve had mixed experience of the NHS like most. Some excellent staff who want to help and save time, some of the same role who do things completely differently, in a much more time consuming and resource intensive way (think simple tasks like administering antibiotics to a small baby). Some really empathetic, compassionate staff; some the complete opposite. Proactive GPs, and some who refuse to budge.

Their processes are just ridiculous though. I have waited hours to be discharged. Everything has to be done on paper. Letters sent out for everything. Phone lines only open for 2 hours on 3 days a week, so impossible to get through.

@Ladyfird How many sites has the MOD got? how many users? i ve been involved in both MOD and NHS IT systems.. there is no comparison.

..and some of the stuff, used in both sectors inc the private sector involvement, would astound most people.

I think Labour looked at an NHS IT patient record roll out in the 2000's, it was abandoned by the Tories... still ended up costing 10bn....

It all sounds brilliant but the realities are it would be extremely expensive and would mean even less spent on scanners, staff/training abd capital build.

This nails it ^

I have a relative in hospital in Wales at the moment who had been admitted for the second time due to a hip replacement (last year) surgical wound not healing, due to infection.
They are 89 have a complex medical history including deafness, Parkinson's Disease, dementia, a history of falls, mobility issues, 4 stents and polypharmacy.

Surgeons and specialists are now debating the best way to manage this situation and whether to replace the hip again.

This!!

That is a tough read. We can do these things but it is a vast move on from where we started with NHS

Personally I think at 70 people should be asked to sign a disclaimer about the sort of medical care they want if they’re diagnosed with Alzheimer’s/dementia. And it should be stuck to regardless of family opinion.

Fully agree with the ridiculous OT system/processes. For my DC vaccinations I have had letters to say I will get a letter! What a waste of someone’s time. And the fact that everything has to be paper based, I requested copies of health forms to be emailed but it couldn’t be done, I had to wait for the paper copies which meant someone had to physically print/photocopy them.

@JoonT i do agree with you there too about people abusing their bodies, although I think a large number of Tories are guilty of that, Boris was apparently very ill when he had covid and I’m sure his weight and general poor health were a factor.

*IT not OT.

After a decade of labour our hospitals were failed around us.

NHS needs totally overhauling, ring fencing.... toughening up.... modernising and kept for Ni payers.

In France they still down into your details before they give you treatment! Before Brexit
It's extrordinary that here staff has no systems for this at all and didn't want to ask people who may not be tax payers??

Baffling and dangerous.

And lifting out of politics entirely with a specialists team who knew what they doing... not some random health minister every few years

Well said. Thank you..

Spot on.

PP who said it’s all down to underfunding and Brexit - I agree with the latter in part but not the former. We can’t just keep throwing money at the NHS - in theory any service could be what we want it to be with the right funding. But is that fair or proportionate?

People need to start taking responsibility for their own health. Very few fat people (despite making up half the country) will admit they simply eat too much and the wrong food - it’s always blamed on MH, and they want a series of expensive psychology appointments to ‘find out why they have problems with food’ when the answer is clearly just greed. Then medication for type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure. All could be solved if they ate less 🤷🏼‍♀️

Equally people with mild to moderate MH issues don’t take the most basic steps to help themselves - fresh air, exercise and healthy food. They’re encouraged to sign off work, close the curtains and lie in bed on antidepressants because pointing out the obvious is seen as ‘minimising’ because ‘you feel how you feel’.

It all costs the NHS an absolute fortune, I don’t want to just keep throwing money at it to prop up an irresponsible public.

In terms of ‘underfunding’ real terms funding has increased so the same question is there over how much more of an increase people are expecting to match demographic changes?

And next, who pays

On here it generally means as much as it takes to cushion people from having to do anything for themselves. I dread to think!

I think this is pretty standard in care homes and offered as an End of Life Care Package. I'm not sure if there is an age criteria.

A family member (now deceased) had this discussion with a case worker when she was in a nursing home. They were asked if they wanted to be resuscitated in the event of Cardiac Arrest and be giving PEG feeding if unable to feed themselves.
They refused both options and any other medical interventions.

I don’t think it should just apply to resuscitation though, but withholding antibiotics etc.

It can do if that has been previously agreed. (I don't like the word 'witholding' as that intimates non-consent which is not the case.)

10% increase to every single pensioner in the UK (12.1m) regardless of whether they are a 40% tax payer or not... energy support to Amazon, BP, Shell and everyone of the UK's multi millionaires.. over 2m and the 177 billionaires.

Income tax rates not applied to investment income or CGT...

Funny how no one says "who pays?"

Does this even happen now? i know it used...

ime no, mum bound bound, stroke, chest infection.. palliative calming only, no AB's... despite my sister demanding them for mum.
asked my DD in a large district hospital... again, its not the norm, in deed the last time she saw it, a complaint was put in against the Dr who prescribed.

A single system would be a lot easier to keep updated as well. It'll never happen because a) it makes too much sense, b) it would make life easier for staff and patients, c) they don't want to invest as can't see the end of their nose.

d) it was attempted around 15 to 20 years ago. Tens of millions was spent (wasted) and they couldn’t make it work.

It needs reforming, Blair tried to make it more responsive to performance but as he said, scars on his back. Andrew Lansley tried to decentralise and got pilloried. It should not be free at point of use for wealthy, they should contribute more upfront according to means test (NOT income test). GP as gateway to services no longer working.

Why should anyone "wealthy", whatever that means, pay to use a service they already pay for? There was some data this week that over 50% of the population doesn't contribute anything, and that the top 10% percent in income contribute 60% in taxes, so they are already paying for the rest.

Agree I’m not up for paying again up front and paying more for a service I don’t use that much

I’m actually ok with the NHS we have private too and NHS has been faster for GP and easier

I mean I could do a nominal fee for behaviour change if it worked but there’d be so many exempt and whose behaviour is to be changed

They are "paying for the rest" because we have had a decade plus of very low or no pay rises, means less people pay tax.... its then not surprising a smaller amount of people then do, especially as they have become very wealthy over the same period.

Look at Amazon, record profits, hourly pay increased to £10.50 ph wow! ... .. 2015 730k millionaires in uk, in 2022, it was 2.4m.

Austerity has wrecked the UK.

One of the big elephants in the room is obesity. Just look at people of all ages when you walk around any town. Unless they manage to lose weight they will also be a massive user of the NHS even before they reach retirement age.

Heart problems, joints, cancer and diabetes cost £££. This is a recent problem I had never seen obese people and children until I first visited the US. Could not believe how fat so many people and children were. Now an everyday thing in the UK.

Fewer people pay tax because they don't work enough hours. You need 16 hours of work to qualify for UC. They you are topped up and the top ups mean more people can afford to do less work and we end up with the 50% not contributing numbers and the "5 million economically inactive".

In 2021, 22% of working age people in England, Scotland and Wales were economically inactive – this means they were out of work and not looking for a job

The above quote is from gov.uk.

How can this be sustainable? The jobs are there, we talk about needing more immigration and at the same time there is 22% of working age people just doing fuck all. Why do you blaming the Tories for? For providing them with the means to be able not to look for work? Because that seems to be happening.

I've frequently wonder this 20 + years in charge of Education and Welsh NHS - and by most metrics aren't doing well as other parts of the UK.

I do get the demographics of Wales and Scotland are more against them currently - wales especially import older people - and other "reasons" but it's not the only bit of UK with problems and frankly after that length of time it does start to feel like excuses being made - perhaps other parties might have some ambition or ideas - and here in wales that doesn't just mean Tories.

When we moved here NHS couldn't fine NHS dentist - no a new problem according to locals you paid, travel long distance or did without - including kids. That now the case in part of England but here the official lists and authorities would always isn't there was a NHS practise but when you contacted they hadn't taken NHS for years.

I think the NHs needs form - before we end up with US system by back door - and we need a national debate about that which is current;y impossible. I'm not sure NHS is safe with Westminster Labour government either TBH - though they may be able to drive reform with less push back.