To not understand why Rishi Sunak shelving the 'childcare reform plans' as a bad thing

[Mummyof287]

Firstly because increasing the ratios would be unsafe and unkind for children, and and unfair for childcare practitioners.
(I used to be one)

Secondly because '20 more hours free childcare' would basically be the government pushing/encouraging parents to prioritise working before their children, and to be more likely to send them to daycare for longer than is emotionally healthy to be apart from their families at such a young age.

So why is it being seen as a bad move? Or is that just the media's viewpoint 🤨

Changing ratios would lead to less childcare places, not more.

Staff who are paid minimum wage now look after 4 toddlers each.

This is hard, it's not the same as looking after your own child at home, as you need to educate them according to the EYFS. This means activities, planning, recording, reporting, supporting SEN, tons of paperwork etc.
Most staff are trained to at least level 3, many to degree level but all get minimum wage, or just above.

If you increase ratios, to 1:5 you are asking then to do 25% more work for no more money.
Would you stay in a job that asked that of you?

So staff will leave and not be able to be replaced.

There is already a recruitment crisis. Where I work we are already limitng the number of children we take because we can't get enough staff to care for them.
If more leave, we will have to limit it even further.

Nurseries are closing at an alarming rate, making the job harder will only increase this rate.

I am curious to know what percentage of children are in nursery for that long? I imagine a very small minority.

Many parents of the babies that I know of have dropped their children's hours in nursery as they cannot afford it.
I think what people fail to understand is that it isn't just about getting a staff member to work in a nursery, there are certain qualifications needed. For example, in a baby room, you would need one level 3 and at least half the other staff need to be level 2. You can be unqualified and work in a nursery but you can't have 4 unqualified members of staff in a room with no qualified as it's a breach of ofsted.
As was said upthread, if the ratio of kids are increased then it puts more pressure on staff who are already stretched to the limit.
On another note, I speak to colleagues who are level 2 qualified and a lot of them say that there's no point progressing to level 3 as the pay increase is so small, it just isn't worth it.
It really is a dire situation all around for parents and staff.

30 hours a week spread over 52 weeks a year is a drop in the ocean for childcare for people working full time
Childcare should be funded depending on people's working hours

Yet if our claim benefits you get 15 hours at 2 and they don't even need it the current system is unfair

The UK is one of the most expensive and hardest places to have a child. Especially in London &South East

Personally I don’t think preschool childcare is expensive at all when you consider what you get. There’s already help in the form of tax breaks, free hours and universal credit. It is also for a fairly limited time period. I think there should be more emphasis on state run school based childcare for older children. Take out the profit element and require before and after school care and holiday clubs in schools. The buildings are already available, it’s much more difficult to source that care than full time nursery and it’s expensive given the ability to safely look after much larger numbers of children.

@Mummyof287

"But ultimately, we as parents need to be 'present' with our young children for a decent amount of time, for their emotional health, and attachment/relationship building and to not do so is doing them an injustice"

It's fine to have that opinion, and most families will agree to an extent. I'd love to go part time with my DS to be able to be there for their emotional health.

But not many families can afford it, it costs 2 decent wages to afford to run a house now, unless you want every family on UC struggling on the poverty line? Or does emotional health trump a roof over their head, heat in their rooms and food on the table?

Affordable childcare should be state funded like primary/secondary education. And the ENTIRE system needs reforming.

Additionally, what happens to workforce productivity when all (women) leave to do this childcare? Who picks up the slack?

Also, birth rates are already low, guilting parents into staying at home, or forcing them to will reduce them further.

Its super expensive, locally its averaging about £65 per day.

£65 * 5 = £325 per week
£325 * 51 weeks (minus christmas week) = £16,575 per year
£16,575 - £2000 cap = £14,575
£14, 575 / 12 = £1215 per month..

for 1 child.

Plus rent/mortgage (£600-£800),
plus energy (£200-£400),
plus other utilities, council tax etc. (£300-£500)

even taking the middle values thats £2615 per month

then add transportation/commute costs, food, general living costs, clothing and other essentials (£300 - £500)

again take the middle cost, thats £3015 per month.

then what about the nice to haves, holidays, christmas, birthdays, days out (£200-£400)

or an important one.. another child (£1000 with discounts)

thats £4315 per month.

I'm in a £65K income household, we bring in £4000 including our child benefit. Even if you remove the nice to haves, that leaves us with literally nothing left..

How is that not expensive?

Of course it's expensive. When my son went to nursery it was like 80% of my wage if not more. You don't get free hours until the term after they turn 3. And even then it's 30 hours term time, my bill probably halved but it wasn't completely free. Tax free childcare is a max of 2k a year which isn't really that much comparably. The limit of earnings for UC is low.

I agree after school and holiday care is needed, but I don't think it's needed instead of help for early years.

I don't think sending young children to a good nursery for some of the time (or especially in the case of infants, a good childminder) is bad for them by any means...if they are settled in properly and are happy there then it can be a very beneficial experience for them.I was a SAHM with my first, have worked 2.5 days a week with my 2nd (she has been with a lovely CM since 10mths) and both have thrived.Many people can't afford to be SAHM's all the time either.But children ARE often spending too much time in daycare nowadays and not enough time with their mummies/families, and like you say the psychological affects (especially if it's a nursery which is not a 'home from home' environment ) can be damaging for attachments and mental health.

I do work...never said I didn't 🤔 And I certainly wouldn't say we are 'privileged' financially by any means, we are on a fairly low income, live month to month and can't afford luxurious extras.

I'm not saying everyone should be stay at home parents, but a child being in childcare whilst a parent working part time afew days a week is very different to them being there 8-6 four or five days a week, which does happen more than it should.

@onesadmama @Ineverwannabelikeyou

how is £6.50 an hour expensive to look after a young child? It is really not a lot of money for the service provided at all. If they’re on a 1:3 ratio that’s a total of less than £20 per hour, I can’t even see how that is covering costs tbh! It’s nowhere near 80% of nmw and you’d be able to get tax free childcare and UC childcare help (the cut off is much higher than nmw and you’d be getting child elements and child benefit as well). Free hours at 3.
yes having children invariably costs money. I don’t think childcare should be made less safe to save money. And nursery workers are already poorly paid, I don’t think it’s right to make their job even harder

You've got it spot on! I witnessed many great practitioners move onto better paid jobs with better career progression and t's & c's and it was such a loss to the children.Some of the people working in nurseries are amazing but others have no idea of how to help a child develop and learn, don't care for them in an emotionally sensitive way or understand how to manage their behaviour appropriately because their heart isn't in it or they have been pushed/fallen into it without the correct skillset for the job

And financial support for childcare has already increased substantially recently. A few years ago you got 15 hours free term time only and it used to be nothing!

Did you not read our replies to you.

I literally costed out the price of having 2 children in childcare for a household with no debt and barely any non essential spend. And it came to over £4300 per month.

£6.50 pee hour doesn't seem alot but most family's spend well over 50% of their income on it, which makes it expensive.

Are only the rich (and I mean super rich because its even a stretch for £70k+ households) allowed children?

The problem is the funding doesnt match the hourly rate of the nurseries either so private day nurseries would be forced to shut down.

People already hold disgusting views of nurseries, extra 20 hours funding would be the final nail in the coffin of an already struggling sector.

You are completely oblivious to the needs of the majority.
It. Is. Not. Enough.

If we want safe, high quality childcare with well paid staff AND a productive workforce AND a strong economy we NEED state funded childcare for ALL working parents.
And unfortunately that only comes from increasing taxes or reducing expenditure elsewhere.

The middle age torys need to start investing in the babies who will be their nurses and carers when they're elderly 🙄, otherwise they won't have anyone as noone will be able to afford to live and have children

Yes and back when it was nothing, the cost of living was not as it was. Houses were not as expensive as they are. You could run a household on one average salary. Can you do that now? No.

Oh dear. You've no a clue have you?

If you're able to live on one salary you are privileged.

Far worse in hospitals where nurses are allocated 7 patients, often more and they just have to get on with it for no extra pay.

Have you done the maths on it being nothing like 80%? ....... I don't think you have. Minimum wage is less than 20k gross. Just over £1400 per month and that's not taking into account any pension payments. £65 a day, full time works out to be about £1408 a month. No it's nothing like 80% it's more

And 2k tax free childcare is all you get. Because let's face it, your partner or husband is working full time so even if they're on min wage you've a 40k ish joint income.... Wonder how much UC you'd get. Not a great deal I imagine. Not enough to fund a second child going to nursery that is for certain.

All these bold claims and clearly no actual experience.

Oh and, you can't claim universal credit and use tax free childcare. It's one or the other.

That’s fab for you but not for those on average let alone low wages etc. I mean £30k pa works out at about £16ph before tax and that’s above the average income in the UK. This logic does not help everyone or even the majority.