To say the NHS does not have too many admin staff?

[Leakingtoilet]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/30/nhs-has-many-admin-staff-not-enough-managers/

We don't have enough staff to get the job done, hence the fact we are constantly offering admin and secretarial overtime. It seems that way in most other departments that I have dealings with. Plus it's really difficult to recruit to vacant posts.

Anyone have a different experience?

where on earth does the Telegraph get its opinions?

From Patricia Hewitt who was pad by the government to carry out a review of the NHS. A huge amount of admin work could be automated with the right IT infrastructure. If you’d bothered to read the article you’d know this.

i did @Blossomtoes
no need to be superior

Ms Hewitt said by international comparisons the NHS has too few managers, but too many administrative staff.

She added that creating region-wide shared back office systems could cut down on this bureaucracy.

she has a pipe dream

But that's a system in place in lots of NHS trusts? A bracelet you scan to link to records. But you also need a system which has all their records/obs/meds imputed for that to work. Which exists but is expensive and difficult to set up I terms of the infrastructure needed.

You still need to do the obs for every patient, and input them. You still need to document the medications you've given and doses, you can't just scan a bracelet and then the system knows you've given paracetamol. Lots of trusts have online prescribing systems that give you tasks or reminders but youve got to be looking at the computer, which is obviously normally during a drugs round. So this system doesn't prevent you doing a drugs round

I don't really see what problem this is solving or how it would save the NHS any time or money.

Yes a proper integrated electronic system does save money and time but there isn't just a simple "oh scan a bracelet" solution that doesn't cost billions to set up

there are bar codes in use already

My old hospital's bereavement office had 10 admin workers who sat around loudly complaining that the junior doctors hadn't done the death certificates by midday (because they were still on the ward round).

My old hospital’s bereavement office was staffed by one person.

In the trust I work in (Mental Health mostly) we are actually looking at getting more admin staff in some areas, the clinical staff are absolutely inundated with additional work that does not actually need a clinician to do so this would really help in getting more patients seen and the clinicians doing the work they should be doing. Also none of our receptionists are just receptionists either, they are extremely busy and generally cover many areas as well as manning the front desk. They do an amazing job and being on reception in the mental health units/services is very demanding, and dangerous at times.

Obviously this isn't the case in all trusts or departments, I am sure there are many that aren't efficiently run.

Obviously i read the article before posting. A lot of processes at my trust are already electronic. Notes have been electronic for years. Letters go straight to GPs electronically. Referrals are electronic - paper referrals from GPs are not accepted, they have to come via e-referrals. Appointments go out via text or patient portal, can also have letter if requested.

None of this takes away the need for admin staff.

I didn't see this post before I posted my comments, exactly this is the issue we are having. It feels like we streamlined management and admin staff (the general public tend to believe this is where the main issues are in the NHS) but actually it was totally the wrong thing to do. We are now almost doing a full circle to ensure that clinicians are doing clinical work for the bulk of their time with the correct support in place.

I have 2 friends who do admin for the NHS and neither are overly busy at work.

Years ago I got a zero hours contract in an NHS department. I was a student at the time.

solved a shit load of problems as admin staff are nearly all women, and need holiday/time off over school holidays. As a student I was more than happy not working in term time, then doing every hour I could in the holidays.

so everyone got to take a/l around their kids, I got to earn a decent chunk without sacrificing my study time. The department was rarely short staffed so no backlog and everything got updated in less busy periods.

I did this for 5 years until I got a full time job. I ended up working across 3 different departments as once word got out I’d just be asked if I could cover x or y as miss smith was on holiday and they had a clinic.

i don’t know why this isn’t the norm. As far as I’m aware it’s never been done before or since.

jobs.theguardian.com/job/8404722/director-of-discharge-to-assess-and-home-first-transformation/?LinkSource=TopJob

Our 5 key principles demonstrate our belief in the delivery of ‘safe, high quality care every time’.

1. Being a clinically led organisation
2. Quality and safety at the heart
3. A positive patient experience every time
4. A great place to work Managing our money well

My last NHS admin role was a complete nightmare due to overwork and lack of staff. Managers thought we could perform miracles doing the work of three people and criticised us if some tasks were not completed. Stress levels were enormous. Lots of people tell me it has got worse. This was a London teaching hospital.
I do get annoyed when people say there are too many admin staff.

@antipodeancanary - I'm at the top of Band 7, and it seems to be impossible to get any admin support, even though I have too much other work to do.

This 100%

I have examples from every time I have had to have contact with hospital appointments for myself, my dc, or my parents over the last 30 years or so of how time wasting the processes are and how inefficient the whole system is.

I'm sure - like in most organisations - there are people who are slackers and people who work incredibly hard, and the vast majority who do the work put in front of them, but they are being expected to work with such inefficient systems.

I entirely agree with this. It's madness.

n example:
In outpatients a clinician sees a patient then dictates a letter, a medical secretary types the letter, someone posts the letter, the GP admin team scan the letter and upload it to their system. This process takes months

it doesnt take months,
the typing is generally outsourced for a start, the letter sent electronically.
depends on department how long it takes,
would be quicker with more admin staff, to process. so they are necessary.

At my surgery, the referral letters are dictated by the GP (some of whom take longer to do this than typing it would take) and saved to the patient records, then a request sent to our secretary who types them up and sends them electronically to the hospital.
Not too inefficient, although if all GPs could type at a decent speed it would be faster for them to type their own as they go. Usually a short paragraph is sufficient.
A referral form or being able to book directly would be better. Surely specialitied don't really need a personal letter for each person, just knowing the GP thinks they should be seen should be enough.

Having every part of the NHS on the same IT system would save so much time. We have district nurses employed by the Trust who see some of our patients, but they use a different IT system so they can't see our records and we can't see theirs.

Patients leaving hospital/having procedures get a discharge letter. This is sent electronically to us, usually, but not quickly and I've often seen the patient for their follow up appointment before the letter is on the system. In most cases, having read the letter before they enter the room means I'm all set up and ready to go as I know why they're here and what to expect.

We don't have enough admin, it's shit pay for a job that's often stressful. We need huge overhaul of systems and processes.

All these letters being sent to and fro - are they really just a series of tick boxes rather than someone actually penning a missive?

I'm surprised they can recruit any administrators, my local trust are always advertising at c£18k for admin staff.

you could be paid better in Aldi

I'm not sure you can extrapolate your experience to all other areas

I went to orthopaedic outpatients first week in August. Letter to GP uploaded in late November to system 1. I received my postal copy around a week before it was uploaded

yes @Rebelyells
it varies from department to department as i said.
but months is not the norm.