to be considering Ferber in these circumstances?

[HumanDummy2022]

Bit of a shameless AIBU for traffic, sorry! It’s more of a WWYD?

10.5 month DS. Exclusively breastfed, currently on three milk feeds a day, eats solids well - three meals a day.

For several months now he hasn’t been able to sleep for me unless he’s feeding. Attempts at swaying just result in thrashing about and shouting. He has on occasion self settled (we used the Lucy Wolfe gentle sleep solution approach) but recently teeth, colds, stomach bugs etc have gotten in the way of that.

DH can sway & sing him to sleep 90% of the time. My mum can read him books until he falls asleep on her.

I’ve tried everything but he absolutely won’t settle for me. We think it must be because I breastfeed him. He doesn’t even want a feed I don’t think, but it’s the only tool I’ve got to relax him.

Problem is he doesn’t unlatch so I have to feed him into a complete milk coma, pull him off the boob then pray he doesn’t wake on the transfer to the cot. It’s 50/50 whether he wakes and it usually takes 2-3 attempts over the course of an hour or so or feeding.

BUT, once he’s down he will generally sleep through the night. Doesn’t matter whether he’s been swayed by DH, self-settled, or has been fed.

It really gets me down that I can’t soothe my own baby to sleep. Also DH is going to go away for work for a week soon and I’m going to be screwed!

We’re considering introducing formula (as it’s too early for cow’s milk) for one feed initially to try to accelerate dropping breastfeeding. This makes me a bit sad and I’m aware if it doesn’t work I’m removing the only tool I’ve got to get him to sleep!
And/or we do Ferber. But this also seems cruel and disproportionate for a baby who sleeps through the night! But nap and bedtimes are now such an exhausting struggle.

WWYD?

It sounds like your baby can't self settle to go to sleep initially. Both my children are bottle fed so different I know but my youngest now will scream initially when he goes into the cot as he just doesn't want to and we had to night wean my eldest had to be night weaned at 12 months due to his 2 hourly night feeds - with both we used gentle methods.

Youngest just needs more time having a cuddle before going down. We stroke their eyebrows to get them relaxed. A hand on their stomach in the cot.

Thanks @WombatStewForTea and another PP for explaining that people were suggesting changing cot to a bed and avoiding the transfer altogether, that makes sense. I don’t want to sound like I’m just resisting advice but I’m not sure it’s the solution, as it’s getting him to unlatch that is the main problem I think, which would still be an issue in a bed. So could be a drastic change to the room (with the added expense) for not much improvement, and seems a shame for a baby who is actually perfectly happy in his cot all night.

I know it might sound a bit ridiculous @Babyboomtastic. In my frustration last night I didn’t articulate it very well
perhaps, but, thinking about it again this morning, I think the main issue isn’t that it takes so long or is “a bit of effort” (though I would add that feeding for so long is very physically draining!). It’s that I feel this massive sense of failure and guilt that my baby doesn’t want to settle onto my shoulder and essentially be cuddled to sleep like he will with my DH (and my mum). I have no way of relaxing him other than sticking a nipple in his mouth. Ironically it’s the fact it takes so little effort in a way that’s the kicker. If he was relaxed with me and could snuggle in for a cuddle, I wouldn’t mind (as much) if it took an hour. I know he doesn’t need the feed because he doesn’t need it when DH
puts him down, it’s just a last resort situation for me because he won’t relax any other way. And because of having to feed him until he’s unconscious then trying to sneak him into the cot, it feels like tricking him in a way that swaying or reading books doesn’t - he knows he’s being helped to sleep in those situations and doesn’t seem to mind. So that just adds to my sense of failure really.

If he was a baby that could only ever feed to
sleep i’d not have the same feelings I don’t think. It’s because he is capable to falling asleep in other ways, but doesn’t with me specifically, that makes me feel a bit crap about it all.

I know we have it good in lots of ways though - I don’t take that for granted. This thread is probably becoming more of an emotional outlet than a request for advice now! I’ll read some of the helpful posts about gentle sleep training properly later, thank you all.

@lifehappens12 What I wouldn’t give for a baby who could be relaxed by stroking his eyebrows and putting a hand on his tummy. People IRL have suggested that kinda thing too. If I put him straight in the cot, or even if I’m just sitting in a chair reading a story or something, he’s not relaxed or still enough for me to do that. He just shouts, thrashes, hits out/grabs my hand etc.

This isn’t having a go at you, I promise, but it just makes me laugh a little sadly as so many people have said “Have you tried sshing/patting/ rubbing tummy/ bottom pats” etc. I just want to say “Have you tried rubbing the tummy of a bucking bronco?!” 😂

Just a thought OP…for lots of babies, breastfeeding is their preferred method of being soothed. So even though your little one will accept other soothing methods when breastfeeding isn’t an option, when you are there he would like to use his preferred method of relaxing as it is available.

Rather than feel guilty and a sense of failure, I would view it as a lovely thing that you are able to provide him with his preferred method.

Sort of like tea is my drink of choice, but if it’s not available I’ll happily drink coffee, but tea is still my preference if I have a choice…hope that makes sense and makes you feel a bit better about it!

It’s absolutely fine to find bedtimes tiring and want a glass of champagne on nye. It doesn’t have to be a thing with parenting that you’re joyously happy with every thing and can’t crave a bit of your old life.

1 1/2 hours to get a child in to bed is nuts

Yes it's nuts, but it's also within the range of normal (for my friends IRL anyway).

Wanting champagne on NYE, again totally normal. Complaining that your child is delaying that, when its barely 8pm, is being very very optimistic about the realities of having an evening with small children around.

Oh for goodness sake @Babyboomtastic , I wasn’t “complaining my child was delaying my champagne”! What a way to twist the words of what was clearly just a bit of an emotional outpouring from a tired mum of a 10 month old.

I love my baby to bits, I spend all day every day putting his needs and happiness (quite rightly) completely above my own. In the middle of yet another tiring feeding session at the end of the most exhausting year of my life, I briefly indulged a wish that things could just be a little bit easier and that my baby could be capable of being soothed to sleep without needing to literally physically drain me for an hour in the process, so that - yes - on NYE, I might be able to share half a glass of champagne and a cuddle with my husband.

Personally I don’t think it’s healthy for mothers to be constant gluttons for punishment and look for ways to pile more guilt on themselves. As you’ve shown so aptly, some other women are only too keen to do that for us.

Thank you @felixthefox , that’s a lovely way of thinking about it and I’ll try to remember that!

DS woke up with a nasty cold today so we’ve had a day of snoozy feeds on the sofa under a blanket, which has actually been lovely.

Gosh what an OTT reaction. I can't believe what you're doing with a 3 & 5 yo, there's no need to be a martyr, nothing wrong with wanting to not be stuck doing bedtime for an hour if you don't need to (different if child is sick). You and your friends sound like the rare ones if that's normal to you

Well said 👏

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I don’t know what Ferber is but YANBU to consider your own mental health in all this.

Two teenage dcs here. Both breast fed. Both were not naturally good sleepers'.

DC1 we tried crying it out method but we lived with relatives at the time who didn't approve and ultimately we couldn't be consistent. It didn't work. Age 5 we were still spending hours in her room each night Patti g her back and stroking her. I even ended up with a mini bed on the floor by my bed so I could lie with my hand in her back for nights she couldn't sleep. IT WAS SPUL DESTROYING! She has been a phenomenal sleeper now for years. Sleeps in pitch black for many many hours. All the stress made no difference to her when she aged up enough. What I will say is that having DC2 made me tougher. Eventually I just said no. We weren't cruel which is why we let her come to our room and sleep near us but I couldn't do it. It was breaking me. Aged 5 I had to say mummy cannot stay awake all night with you.

If I could go back, I would have broken the patting, rocking cycle earlier.

DC2. Sleep trained at 8 months. Worked very quickly. Slept brilliant. She regressed though and I couldn't do it again. So I moved to other forms. Would stay in her room and pretend to fold clothes or laundry. Pottering in and out of her room. We were so scarred by the first child I just couldn't bring myself to rock, pat, ssssh, rub. So I was present but refused to do more. I went back to full time work when she was 3 and DP took on a lot of her care. She regressed many times over the years. She is now 12 and STILL struggles to sleep if we don't go in to sit with her for a few minutes. Ultimately this means she would stay up until the early hours and just have a bad night. I genuinely believe that's on us and our facilitating that sleep assistance.

What I am saying is this. We tried lots of 'methods'. There is no magic solution. But we did our best. We have great kids that sleep long and happily 'eventually' and I don't believe that sleep training is the greatest impact on a child. In an otherwise loving warm environment then doing what you think is best will absolutely benefit you all. In your case you know that you baby will sleep. So do what is best for you.

I think Ferber is fine and common for a baby of this age fwiw. Given the choice between reducing bf-ing and some form of sleep training, I’d do the latter.

That’s very unfair to the OP and a complete misrepresentation of what she actually said

Perhaps that’s in the range of normal for your friends but it isn’t the case for everyone and I wouldn’t be taking advice from someone who thinks it is

This is true.

Normal varies. While my older friends mostly co-slept (which I was too scared to do because of SIDs risk) my friends now in RL with the same aged children have all sleep trained (my personal time limit was 5 minutes).
Our kids all go down straight away, that's normal for us, that's our reality of having small children

Hi OP, we’re in a similar situation where our LO mostly sleeps through but actually getting her down is a battle, she needs to be held until she’s fast asleep and then slowly put down. This wakes her up around 50% of the time and then we need to start again so sometimes getting her down can take over an hour.

I started sleep training tonight because I want her to learn to go to sleep on her own. My husband is away a lot and I can’t keep spend hours every evening getting her to sleep.

Tonight I let her cry for 2 mins, checked in, 3 mins, checked in, then she stopped crying and fell asleep. I didn’t feel like there was anything harsh or wrong about this as she knew every couple of minutes that I was there and checking in on her. Now she’s fast asleep It feels like an absolute lifesaver already and I’m no longer dreading this upcoming week of bedtimes.

Hope you find a solution that works for you both.

Not true at all (unless under 6 months). I'm not saying that you have to sleep train, and people should do what they are happy to do, but some of the false information here is crazy.
When you don't do anything, this is why you have children who still don't sleep. My niece still wakes up every night and goes into her parents room to sleep, she's 8!! The older was the same, except they were sleep trained when my cousin was pregnant because there wouldn't be enough room for 4 of them in the bed.

Reading this thread with interest…I have a 1 year old who I have safely co-slept with and breastfed since birth. I can’t do the night feeds any more - on a good night she’s up just 3 times, on a bad night it can be every hour even at this age. I think I disturb her sleep and I’m now desperate to get her into the cot.
Breastfeeding gets her to sleep brilliantly quickly which is fantastic and I can roll away…as we co-sleep I don’t have to worry about the transfer. But it’s the constant night wakings that are killing me and I start a new job next month so need to be sharp.
Considering a gentle version of Ferber (keep going in every 2 minutes) but I feel like I read such extreme opinions which is making me feel so guilty. But I am so, so tired!

Apologies I misread your post in regards to the formula! I do get the whole 'wanting an evening thing' as even if you're getting a good night's sleep you still deserve to be enjoying some me time.

know you've said you want to get him to sleep in the cot but considering the issue is him noticing the transition between bring in your arms and being put down I really do think you may find it alot easier to settle him by lying next to him and feeding him to sleep in your bed for naps and bedtimes then moving him into his cot once well asleep.I did this with my first daughter who was really hard to put into the cot (she actually had to sleep in it next to our bed with the side off because she hated it so much) and it worked well although she was a nightwaker anyway so I can't say how much it did or didn't affect that.

The reason he won't settle without feeding with you is because he has that sleep association with YOU,as that's what he has always known, wheras it's never been an option with daddy or grandma...he knows mummy's snuggles include cosying up for a nice feed and doesn't want to miss out on that!

You sound very dedicated, insightful and reflective, sometimes though parenting is total trial and error! Good luck xx

I'm sorry OP, I haven't read every thread, but have you tried a dummy when he's finished feeding? I would take keep the nighttime routine the same every night. Darkened room, DS had had his bath, all cuddly and sleepy, on the boob, good feed, off the boob, dummy in mouth, more sleepy cuddles then cot.

I thought I’d post an update for anyone trawling the threads looking for advice in the future (as I often do).

DS is now nearly 1. We continued with DH doing basically all nap times and bedtimes, either helping him self settle (putting him in the cot with toys and staying and reassuring until he was asleep) or swaying him to sleep. Quite a lot of pressure on DH and made me feel crap and guilty (not that DH complained once).

I managed a couple of times to sway him to sleep, which was progress, but it took absolutely ages and killed my back - he’s huge! He also really struggled to get comfy on me.

Then 12 month regression hit - taking ages to settle, waking every 45 minutes or 1.5 hours and staying awake for 2 hours in the middle of the night. Thankfully it only lasted around 2.5 weeks and then he dropped down to 1 wake up.

A few nights later, DH tried Ferber (with my agreement!) kinda on a whim. He’d been swaying and walking DS around for about an hour and he kept waking up every time he went into the cot.

He gave him a kiss, said good night etc and put him in the cot. DS mainly shouted rather than crying and DH went back in after 3 mins and then again after 5 mins. DS went quiet and then fell asleep after a total of 12 minutes.

The second night he fell asleep in 3 minutes. Then DH tried it for naps - same thing - initial shouty objections to him leaving but then settled down and went to sleep, maybe playing with a few cuddly toys first. For the last few days he’s been quiet when DH leaves the room and has been asleep within a few minutes.

I tried for the first time tonight. As expected, loud objections to me leaving, but he went quiet after less than a minute and was asleep in less than 5.

I never ever thought Ferber would work with our DS but it’s worked an absolute miracle. We’re telling ourselves it wouldn’t have worked so well before now because the amount of wasted hours would be too heartbreaking to contemplate otherwise! Maybe it could only work on the other side of the “regression”, I don’t know.

What I’m confident of is that he is definitely not crying himself to sleep. He is now old and smart enough (and hopefully emotionally attached enough) to know that Mummy and Daddy aren’t far away and will always come to him if he really needs us. But in the meantime, “I’m tired, nothing’s wrong - might as well fall asleep”.

Sooo - in short, I’m amazed and excited by how utterly life changing this will be for us all, and would encourage anyone considering Ferber to keep an open mind.

That's great news. Ferber was good for us too and I agree often it's about the right time.