ASD or narcissism? Difficult mother

[Twocrazycats]

I’ve always had a difficult relationship with my mom, she’s a very complex person with a mental health history of anxiety and depression since she was in her 20s. In the past few years things have gotten much worse and she’s displaying a behavior almost abusive towards my dad, telling him that he’s ruined her life (but she doesn’t want a divorce), insulting him…she’s becoming really aggressive and irrational, and her own family (brother and cousins) is worried about how she treats him. They have told me that she has been difficult and “quirky” since she was a teen, with a high need for attention and validation. This is very extreme, she always complains that people don’t appreciate her enough and tends to overestimate her efforts and, at the same time, minimizes the work other people puts in. She can also be very cruel, I don’t think she wants to hurt but tends to make very hurtful comments and then doesn’t understand why the other person is upset. She says that she’s very honest and hates lying (but she also lies, mostly to strangers, and plays the victim role). She’s socially very withdrawn and always has said she doesn’t really care what other people think of her and doesn’t understand why we do. She can be very rude and blunt, and doesn’t realize. She doesn’t usually enjoy conversations, she disengages easily and is only interested in remembering stories about her childhood and adolescence with her cousins, but won’t talk about other person’s interests or problems. For example, when we (my DB or myself) come to visit she won’t ask anything about our lives and, if we try to tell something about it, she will normally leave and go watch TV. Many of the traits she shows seem narcissistic, in the sense that she needs to be the center of attention constantly, doesn’t take well the slightest criticism (becomes paranoid), can be manipulative and shows a lack of empathy. However, I don’t see any maliciousness in her, she really does want people to love her and, even though she’s not good at showing it, I think she loves us. I was wondering if these behaviours could be signs of ASD that has never been diagnosed and has led to problematic behaviors and patterns…don’t really know what to think, she always makes me so confused, angry and guilty at the same time that I can’t think straight.

Sounds far more narcissistic than autistic.

At the end of the day does it matter?

Lots of asd traits there.

Statistically it's much more likely than NPD.

I agree that it doesn’t really matter. The only way you could know for sure is through proper assessment of her needs.

I would focus less on why she is how she is and more on how you put up barriers and boundaries to protect yourself from her behaviour.

Rather than try to diagnose her, I would try to think about your own response to her, as that's the only thing you can control here.

You can't change her, she won't understand you, she is The Entitled One.

With my mum (very similar presentation / outcome at least) it is inattentive ADHD.

For people saying "It doesn't matter" -- it does as the child of these parents trying to make sense of the parent we love and experience

Watching with interest as I have an acquaintance who is very similar. Life throws us together a lot, otherwise I'd avoid her.

Out of interest, OP, does your DM start conversations just as it's time to leave? The number of conversations I've had with the woman I'm thinking of, on the doorstep after I've said my goodbyes!

ASD is a developmental disorder. What was her early childhood like? Did she talk early or late? Does she read? Did she have friends as a young child? What does she like to eat? Does she have strong preferences on clothing? What shoes does she favour?

She doesn’t sound autistic to me but perhaps it’s the things you left out?

Thanks a lot for the replies! I understand what you say that it really doesn’t matter and the only thing I can control is how I react and the boundaries I set, and you are right, but to me the difference is important because I don’t know how to deal with my ambivalence…I feel anger and compassion and it’s exhausting. For me whether the cause for her behavior is intentional or not makes a difference. Hope this makes sense

That’s interesting because once she mentioned she thought this was a possibility! Did the diagnosis help?

Exactly, thanks!

That’s a fair point regarding the reason. The thing is you won’t get an answer here about what it is, you’d only get an answer with a proper diagnosis. I suspect your mum wouldn’t consider seeking this?

i don’t know if she was an early or late talker, I do know she is very intelligent and as a child was praised a lot for it, and is something very important for her. She also was very academic and takes a lot of pride on that. Socially she has told me she didn’t have many friends because she was happy with her family and didn’t really care about making friends. This has been also the case in adolescence and adulthood, I think she had a couple of friends at uni and also a few in her 20s and 30s but that’s about it. I was bullied in school and when I told her about it she always said that kids used to tease her when she was in school too but she didn’t care and I just should ignore them, so it seems that social interactions have never been interesting to her. She reads a lot and still does, mostly fictions and especially thrillers. She does not have particular preferences on clothing to my knowledge, she tends to war comfortable clothes and always has. Same with food, I haven’t noticed any particular aversions…she is sensitive to noise, however, and hates crowds

@Itisbetter It's a neurodevelopmental disorder that does not always affect the things you mentioned. I am autistic I talked at the normal time, I learnt to read young but not overly young, I had friends, I'm not a picky eater, I don't have any strong preference for certain clothes or shoes...

Op there is a lot of overlap between narcissism (and other personality disorders) and autism, it does sound more like autism to me though. She also sounds inconsiderate and rude, something that everyone can learn not to be, has she been pandered to a lot? Autism is also usually genetic , are there any other autistic people in your family?

People with NPD dont do it out of maliciousness although thats often how it feels. They do it because they are compelled to do it due to their narcism because they have to gain control at all times and unfortunately, a side effect of gaining control is that it makes others feel awful (eg by use of put downs, criticism, cruelty etc). Pity plays, triangulation (comparing you unfavourably to someone else), lying, manipulation, cold shouldering, attention seeking, grandstanding, showing off, being haughty, gaslighting, painting people as either angels or devils (with nothing in between), devaluing others are all classic hallmarks of being a narcissist. Generally, narcs dont realise they are narcs because in their eyes they are perfect and blameless so they wouldnt recognise that it comes across as malicious. Check out HG Tudor on youtube for videos on the pathology of narcism.

I cannot believe posters saying why bother to work it out?

It's her mother!! Of course it helps to get some understanding of challenging behaviour!

It did help. She's always known something is 'different' with her based on how others have reacted throughout her life. She thought for a while she has ASD, which is interesting!

I really empathise with your account BTW. The outcome with my mum's behaviour could often be interpreted as pure narcissism so the diagnosis makes it easier for us all to find that compassion you talk of. It is hard though as the net result is the same (MeMeMe mentality, saying thoughtless/hurtful things, not being able to take turns or essentially ever ask/care about others). So knowing there is a why is helpful but not a cure for the upset.

@orbitalcrisis I have quite a lot of experience of autism and I wasn’t suggesting my questions were exhaustive. People don’t develop autism they are born with it and in many ways particularly for HFA it’s more easily seen during early years especially in hindsight . Certainly I don’t think it would be possible to be autistic and have totally unremarkable development, how would that fit the criteria? OP describes HER difficulties in relation to her mother but unusually doesn’t describe her mothers difficulties in relating others or to Dayton day function.

How would the different diagnosis guide your understanding and interaction with your mother @Twocrazycats ?

Out of interest why do people feel they would have more compassion towards ASD rather than narcissism - isn’t that a mental health diagnosis (genuine question as I don’t know if it is)?

Altogether from what you've written so far, it doesn't sound like autism to me, even if there are a few traits there that autistic people have.

It may or may not be NPD either.

Years ago someone suggested to me that my DM may have borderline personality disorder. I will never know if this is the case or not, but reading about the experiences of daughters with mums with BPD helped me massively - it was the first time I felt understood. It also helped me realise DM was unlikely to change and my decision was to go very low contact. For what it's worth I think she also has CPTSD and ADHD, but again I will never know.

Not quite sure of my point, but I guess a shove in the right direction, reading and therapy has really helped me. It helped me shift my focus from DM to myself and stopped me engaging in pointless struggles with DM.

Narcissistic

OP, I found the book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, Or Self-Involved Parents" by Lindsay C. Gibson very helpful for my similar situation, as it tends to focus on the behaviour and its impact as opposed to the underlying causes. So it can be useful even when you're not sure of the root cause.

I think with my DM there is a definite element of neurodivergence but also she had an abusive upbringing and it's a very complicated situation.

I spent a long time trying to work out the root causes of her behaviour, but some therapy (and that book) helped me to focus more on how her behaviour affected me and how I could better approach the situation - i.e. the parts of the equation that I can actually control to lessen the damage to myself and my DC.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter to me anymore what the cause of my DM's behaviour toward me is - the key issue is working out what I'm prepared to accept in our relationship and what I'm not, and defining and enacting those boundaries accordingly.

I totally get why it would be helpful to understand someone's behaviour completely, especially when it is hurting you, but there is only so much forensic digging you can do into someone else's psyche so it's worth asking yourself what your end goal is.