Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not fully understand the outrage of the gender recognition reform?

419 replies

iamop · 22/12/2022 23:36

Leaving my views at the door on this subject....I am just hoping to gain some clarification on one main point for my own information.

Opponents of the gender reform bill claim that this will effect single sex spaces. I was appalled hearing this but I've done some reading. And it would seem (unless I'm getting this wrong) that due to the equality act 2010, a man claiming to be a female or vice versa can already use single sex spaces due to gender identity being a protected characteristic under this act. And as the equality act is a UK wide legislation implemented under labour, this has nothing to do with the Scottish gov. So am I correct in saying, that actually the gender reform bill won't actually affect single sex spaces any more so than the equality act already does?

I completely disagree with rapists etc being able to change genders and therefore force their victims and the courts to call them by a different pronoun. I think the age of 16 to be able to do this is bonkers, and I think the SNP have lost my vote moving forward.

I was just looking for some clarification to my main point above to be explained by people smarter than myself

Thanks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
JamMakingWannaBe · 23/12/2022 11:12

For those who perhaps think their sons are not affected by the new legislation, with all the new "women" in Scotland, statistics will show there a reduced requirement for male based health provisions eg: prostate and testicular cancer research and treatment.

That's one of the dangers of not recording sex AND gender - although SG don't seem to be recording anything at all!

SweetSenorita · 23/12/2022 11:15

GCAcademic · 22/12/2022 23:44

Gender identity isn’t a protected characteristic, gender reassignment is. The Scottish government has just made it extremely easy for people to legally change their gender, quickly and with no checks. It’s the difference between giving a tradesman the key to your house and handing out copies of your key and home address to random people on the high street.

I like that. Thank you 😘

TitsInAbsentia · 23/12/2022 11:18

Should Westminster have a huge brain fart and agree to this then Scotland needs to prepare itself for an influx of 'girls' and 'ladies'.

TitsInAbsentia · 23/12/2022 11:19

Sorry that should have said from other parts of the UK! They will flock to their holy grail of acceptances. And I hope the Scottish Govt and welfare infrastructure (and the Police) can cope with that fall out.

CandidaAlbicans2 · 23/12/2022 11:20

Utterly shocked and saddened how this bill ever passed, for all the reasons the many articulate posters on this thread have outlined 😢

ILoveeCakes · 23/12/2022 11:21

Mumsnetters think that everyone is out to assault them and abduct their kids - despite stuff like that being super super rare. The "safety" argument is also good cover for their anti-trans stance

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 23/12/2022 11:22

A woman transition to male sex legally using the GRC, then becomes pregnant. Are they covered by maternity legislation as they are now no longer female?

TheKeatingFive · 23/12/2022 11:23

think that everyone is out to assault them and abduct their kids - despite stuff like that being super super rare

oh so it's rare, and that makes it okay? Got it.

And again, what's your number? How many women as collateral damage?

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 23/12/2022 11:23

A woman is paid less than a man working at the same level of responsibility and experience.

The man gets a GRC and for all legal intents and purposes is now a woman.

Can the biological woman still take legal action against the company for breach of equality?

whynotwhatknot · 23/12/2022 11:24

anyone can say their a woman and you cant challenge it-from bloody 16 years old

itshorrifying

babyjellyfish · 23/12/2022 11:25

ILoveeCakes · 23/12/2022 11:21

Mumsnetters think that everyone is out to assault them and abduct their kids - despite stuff like that being super super rare. The "safety" argument is also good cover for their anti-trans stance

Really?

We know that women have been harmed by this ideology.

We know that women have been raped and assaulted by transgender males in women's prisons - and also in women's toilets.

We know that women have lost out on sporting victories and opportunities because transgender males have been allowed to compete in their categories.

We know that women have been denied single sex rape crisis support because not excluding transgender males from even one small part of the service was deemed more important than female rape survivors getting the single sex support they need.

Are you denying that these things have actually happened? Or suggesting that they don't matter?

I find it deeply concerning that women's concerns about their own rights and safety are being dismissed as "anti trans".

Why are we not allowed to put ourselves first? Why must we always put the feelings of male people first?

JellySaurus · 23/12/2022 11:26

whynotwhatknot · 23/12/2022 11:24

anyone can say their a woman and you cant challenge it-from bloody 16 years old

itshorrifying

Any MAN can say he's a woman.

TheKeatingFive · 23/12/2022 11:27

As we all know more women will suffer abuse because of the GRC, I just want a number of how many the supporters are okay with as collateral damage? Or is there no upper limit?

SweetSenorita · 23/12/2022 11:28

CharityShopChic · 23/12/2022 09:43

Just said similar to DH - can't remember the lat time I wore make-up, or a skirt. Does that mean i'm a man?

I'm Scottish, I have a 17 year old daughter. I don't believe that every transwomen is a threat to DD or me. I do strongly believe that ALL people should be free to use whichever name they choose, dress how they want, have whatever hobbies they want without bullying or persecution. Respect for all.

But I also know that people can't change sex. Sex is not "observed", it is innate. Dig up a skeleton 500 years from now and it will be identified as male or female. It's not that complicated.

Teenagers should not be encouraged to "change gender" and be encouraged to start on hormones and radical surgery when they are still CHILDREN. My teenage daughter should not be expected to change for PE in front of a fully intact male. My confused elderly relative with dementia shouldn't be expected a transwoman to help her in the shower if she's not uncomfortable with that. My DD shouldn't miss out on a place on a "women into science" event or similar because a few boys who think they're girls take the places. I don't want to sit in my female-only menopause support group discussing vaginal dryness and anxiety with a male.

Trans people want the right to live their "best lives" without discrimination and harassment and that's fine. But they also want women's rights. And that's not right.

Show quote history

Your teenage daughter should not be expected to change in front of any male. EVER. The status of a male's penis is neither here nor there. Cut it off. Keep it. I don't care. He's still male.

midgetastic · 23/12/2022 11:29

Why should men who identify as women be treated differently to other men?

Yes not all men are abusers yet enough are that we have written into law that sex differentiation is legal

There is absolutely no evidence that transgender males behave differently to any other male

GCAcademic · 23/12/2022 11:33

ILoveeCakes · 23/12/2022 11:21

Mumsnetters think that everyone is out to assault them and abduct their kids - despite stuff like that being super super rare. The "safety" argument is also good cover for their anti-trans stance

Wow, imagine being privileged enough to think that women being assaulted by men is "super super rare". Women are frequently assaulted by men. You must live in an elite little bubble and, worse still, think that everyone else does.

babyjellyfish · 23/12/2022 11:35

Why should men who identify as women be treated differently to other men?

This is the million dollar question.

Your identity is personal to you.

I don't expect anyone to affirm my personal identity. I certainly don't expect half the population to define themselves, or accept me defining them, according to my identity.

"Man" and "woman" aren't words to describe individual identities. They're words to distinguish one half of the human population from the other half, on the basis of each of those groups having shared characteristics which make them similar to each other and different from those in the other group.

I have a shared characteristic with all other women. It's being female. I don't expect that we all - all 4bn of us - have anything else in common whatsoever. That would be absurd.

I don't have anything in common with all men, other than being human.

So what do I have in common with trans women?

What has their identity got to do with me and why am I expected to affirm it?

GentlySobbing · 23/12/2022 11:36

Men now have to ability to opt in to spaces where there are vulnerable women and girls. The point of self ID is that they can do this at will, with no checks or requirements. They literally just have to fill out a form.

Your average predatory man is unlikely to bother to do this in order to access every day single sex facilities - toilets, changing rooms at the shops. They've already got lots of other opportunities to prey on women. And in truth, they don't need to, as the current fashion is for these service providers to provide mixed-sex facilities anyway, so a change of legal sex is irrelevant.

But there are situations where single sex facilities are not just for everyday use. Refuges, rape crisis centres, intimate medical care. Prisons. Predatory men can now decide that they want to use female facilities, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. I would be surprised if any male sex offenders remain in male prisons in Scotland now, they'll all have a much nicer time in the women's prison.

This bill isn't going to do a thing to the everyday experience to a lot of women, because a lot of women do not have a need for rape crisis or DV support and aren't likely to be sent to prison. The women who will be affected by this are among the most vulnerable in society.

GentlySobbing · 23/12/2022 11:39

And the idea that this bill does not affect the Equality Act is absolutely nonsense. It dramatically changes the meaning of "woman" as used in the Act. The word now means "female sex unless they don't want to be included and any of the male sex who do want to be included".

Saying that it has no effect on the Equality Act is like changing the definition of "money" to include "bananas", then starting to pay Universal Credit in bananas whilst claiming that no change has been made to Universal Credit.

babyjellyfish · 23/12/2022 11:40

GentlySobbing · 23/12/2022 11:36

Men now have to ability to opt in to spaces where there are vulnerable women and girls. The point of self ID is that they can do this at will, with no checks or requirements. They literally just have to fill out a form.

Your average predatory man is unlikely to bother to do this in order to access every day single sex facilities - toilets, changing rooms at the shops. They've already got lots of other opportunities to prey on women. And in truth, they don't need to, as the current fashion is for these service providers to provide mixed-sex facilities anyway, so a change of legal sex is irrelevant.

But there are situations where single sex facilities are not just for everyday use. Refuges, rape crisis centres, intimate medical care. Prisons. Predatory men can now decide that they want to use female facilities, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. I would be surprised if any male sex offenders remain in male prisons in Scotland now, they'll all have a much nicer time in the women's prison.

This bill isn't going to do a thing to the everyday experience to a lot of women, because a lot of women do not have a need for rape crisis or DV support and aren't likely to be sent to prison. The women who will be affected by this are among the most vulnerable in society.

The reality is that they can do most of this anyway, with or without a GRC.

Nobody is checking your GRC at the toilet door.

I think in practical terms what it will do is either make it harder for any organisation which wishes to provide single sex spaces or services to justify excluding people who have a GRC, or in conjunction with the Haldane ruling, oblige those organisations to consider that someone who has a GRC is the opposite sex and cannot be excluded.

And it will have an impact on things like crime statistics, with men's crimes being recorded as women's crimes. This will make it more difficult to combat things like male violence against women and girls, because we will no longer be able to point to the fact that 100% of rapes - as defined in UK law - are committed by males, and 98% of all sex offences are committed by males.

It'll be "but women rape too, so single sex spaces don't actually make you any safer". Bollocks they do.

babyjellyfish · 23/12/2022 11:41

GentlySobbing · 23/12/2022 11:39

And the idea that this bill does not affect the Equality Act is absolutely nonsense. It dramatically changes the meaning of "woman" as used in the Act. The word now means "female sex unless they don't want to be included and any of the male sex who do want to be included".

Saying that it has no effect on the Equality Act is like changing the definition of "money" to include "bananas", then starting to pay Universal Credit in bananas whilst claiming that no change has been made to Universal Credit.

The Scottish parliament doesn't have the right or the ability to change the Equality Act though. Any legislation purporting to do so would be overreaching their devolved powers.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 23/12/2022 11:42

That is true @GentlySobbing

bit I would say every women everywhere is affected by the deep misogyny that says ‘woman is an adult human female - and also a feeling in a man’s head or a costume to be worn’

how fucking insulting is it to all women everywhere that we can be reduced a feeling or a costume?

is that all we are to them?

babyjellyfish · 23/12/2022 11:44

Theeyeballsinthesky · 23/12/2022 11:42

That is true @GentlySobbing

bit I would say every women everywhere is affected by the deep misogyny that says ‘woman is an adult human female - and also a feeling in a man’s head or a costume to be worn’

how fucking insulting is it to all women everywhere that we can be reduced a feeling or a costume?

is that all we are to them?

It's like they think we are just extras in the film of their life. There to validate their perception of reality, not as actual humans in our own right.

TheKeatingFive · 23/12/2022 11:45

It's like they think we are just extras in the film of their life. There to validate their perception of reality, not as actual humans in our own right

Thats depressingly accurate

GentlySobbing · 23/12/2022 11:46

I didn't say that they have amended the Equality Act. The FWS case (albeit a case from a lower court) confirmed that sex in the EA means legal sex (ie, it already includes everyone who has legally changed their sex). The Scottish gov have now changed the criteria by which you can change legal sex. They didn't need to amend the EA to do that.

The EA continues technically unamended, but has a dramatically different effect now.