To not fully understand the outrage of the gender recognition reform?

[iamop]

Leaving my views at the door on this subject....I am just hoping to gain some clarification on one main point for my own information.

Opponents of the gender reform bill claim that this will effect single sex spaces. I was appalled hearing this but I've done some reading. And it would seem (unless I'm getting this wrong) that due to the equality act 2010, a man claiming to be a female or vice versa can already use single sex spaces due to gender identity being a protected characteristic under this act. And as the equality act is a UK wide legislation implemented under labour, this has nothing to do with the Scottish gov. So am I correct in saying, that actually the gender reform bill won't actually affect single sex spaces any more so than the equality act already does?

I completely disagree with rapists etc being able to change genders and therefore force their victims and the courts to call them by a different pronoun. I think the age of 16 to be able to do this is bonkers, and I think the SNP have lost my vote moving forward.

I was just looking for some clarification to my main point above to be explained by people smarter than myself

Thanks

But this doesn't make sense because of the lack of definitions.

Living as a woman is an undefined, and frankly, undefinable concept.

It's abhorrent that we are being asked to lie about reality here.

People can't change sex.

The word woman has been erased of all meaning. As someone else said upthread this is legislated male supremacy.

AFAIK there is no need for a man to have any form of reassignment surgery or even to change his appearance to self declare as a woman. If being a woman comes down to heels, skirts and makeup then I'm screwed if someone wants to check my womanhood.

That's already happening.

Check out some transitioners stories, they think they were always girls because the liked "girls" toys, or were more friendly with girls, or something equally as superficial.

SydneyCarton

it’s clearly not enforced though as Freddie Mconnell pledged to ‘live as a man’ and then gave birth!

also I believe that a grc gives a right to privacy in terms of sex. Which means that males could be working in schools or in hospitals presenting as women and it would be very difficult to prove they weren’t.
which will lead to more gaslighting like that which happened when the woman was raped in the hospital by a transwoman and was told there were no men there so that couldn’t have happened.
I had a Twitter argument with two TRAs when I was told that I had no right to know the sex of the medical professional who was performing an intimate examination on me.
This enshrines their rapey views into law.

I feel the same.

The whole thing is a mess. There is no legal definition of what it means to 'live as a man' or 'live as a woman', because how could there be? The only way to live as a woman is to be a woman, by dint of one's biological sex.

So we end up with a position where lots of women and girls just silently drop out of things that used to be single sex.

• Lesbian dating sites are apparently now full of transwomen who are sexually attracted to women and therefore identify as lesbian women and expect real lesbians to accept them as potential partners.
• Online support groups for things that only affect women and girls, e.g. breastfeeding, birth, pregnancy, are now routinely opened up to transwomen.
• Group therapy sessions at rape crisis centres used to be single-sex, now they're single-gender, so transwomen can join the women's only group. Many traumatised women just won't feel able to talk about what happened to them with a male person sitting listening.
• Refuges - women who've complained about the behaviour of transwomen, or just finding a transwoman taking up a scarce place in a refuge, have been thrown out.
• Sport - what's the point in even trying for a place on a team or a scholarship if there's a transwoman there with all the benefits of male puberty? Is it even safe to join in, in the case of contact sports? Will a woman from a strict religious tradition even consider trying out a women's swimming session, for example, if it's clear it's actually single-gender, not single-sex?
• Toilets - we're already seeing girls at schools which have introduced all-gender toilets refusing to go to the loo all day, restricting fluids and ending up with UTIs.

The great elephant in the room is that decades ago the number of people who sought professional help with gender dysphoria was absolutely tiny, and mostly male. Now the trans-identifying population is growing fast and mostly young females, with the other large group adult males. Hardly any adult females. Why is this? You might think academics would be falling over themselves to research this interesting social phenomenon, but no, quite the contrary, except in the case of a very few brave and determined individuals. It's almost as if activists don't want people looking too hard at what's happening!

Two things that get shouted down:

• We all know that adolescence is a very difficult time, and it's particularly bad now for girls because of social media and internet porn. Teenage girls have long been known to be particularly vulnerable to social contagion, e.g. eating disorders, self-harm. The very sudden and recent rise in girls trying to identify out of being girls/women/female looks like another example. But apparently it's bigoted and hateful to suggest this needs looking at.
• What's motivating the adult males to transition? It used to be accepted by the professionals working in this area that there were two main reasons. One was gender dysphoria, often in men who had been abused as children or who were gay, or both. Transition was a coping mechanism for them, and they were not considered a threat to women. The other group were almost exclusively heterosexual and cross-dressed as part of a condition that rhymes with wettish. It's a feature of such conditions that making other people part of it, especially against their will, increases the excitement. This group were not approved for surgery by reputable psychiatrists and psychologists. But those days are gone now.

They do have to pledge that they will live forever as the opposite gender. There is no explanation of what it means to live as the opposite gender. The example given is to change your name on households bills.

How does a 16yo do that?

How does a 16yo even know what they want to do for the rest of their life?

It is bad law made on undefined - and indefinable - assumptions and beliefs. The GRA is just as bad, but at least it slows the process down and requires some degree of support and investigation for people who want to use it.

Today, I am wearing no makeup, baggy clothes and will be doing DIY. A regular weekend for me. Am I living as a man? My other half will be food shopping and cooking. Is he living as a woman? Are we a queer couple? Rather than middle aged heterosexual married couple who divvy up the chores?

I'm probably clutching at straws but does the specific wording of the Haldane ruling mean there's a loophole? Her ruling is about people who obtained a GRC under the 2004 act but in Scotland GRCs will no longer be under that legislation but the new one. So will it apply?

In any case it's a complete mess.

I am not a Tory voter but I plan to write to Rachael Hamilton who is one of my regional MsPs to thank her for her efforts on all of this.

The original legislation was a fudge designed to protect privacy, waived through on the grounds that it would only be used by a tiny number of people. The new legislation is designed to to something completely different - recognise the identities of a far larger number of people.

Meanwhile no legislature has examined why sex is recorded E.g. on a death certificate. If it isn’t important, why is it being done at all? If it is important, what is being recorded? What is gender and why is it the government’s business to keep records of it?

You can't ask for a GRC. As the people that worked behind the scenes made it impossible to ask, as that would constitute 'outing' them.

So it is Self ID by the back door.

On the issue of a sex offender changing his name to a woman's name.... could he not just change his name anyway (to another man's name)? He wouldn't need to get a GRC necessarily to change name?

He could, but would be expected to declare any previous names used. Having a GRC means he can demand to be placed in the female prison estate, use female changing rooms and spaces that one wouid expect to be single sex, he can use female domestic abuse services, access counselling in female services. It literally gives convicted sex offenders access to women at their most vulnerable.

This. With bells on.

As Ash Regan said in her superb speech to Parliament during the debate -

'We're not going to be able to tell [who is genuine]. This now creates a situation where member of a dominant group can self-ID into the rights of an oppressed group. And this is absolutely unprecedented'.

Just said similar to DH - can't remember the lat time I wore make-up, or a skirt. Does that mean i'm a man?

I'm Scottish, I have a 17 year old daughter. I don't believe that every transwomen is a threat to DD or me. I do strongly believe that ALL people should be free to use whichever name they choose, dress how they want, have whatever hobbies they want without bullying or persecution. Respect for all.

But I also know that people can't change sex. Sex is not "observed", it is innate. Dig up a skeleton 500 years from now and it will be identified as male or female. It's not that complicated.

Teenagers should not be encouraged to "change gender" and be encouraged to start on hormones and radical surgery when they are still CHILDREN. My teenage daughter should not be expected to change for PE in front of a fully intact male. My confused elderly relative with dementia shouldn't be expected a transwoman to help her in the shower if she's not uncomfortable with that. My DD shouldn't miss out on a place on a "women into science" event or similar because a few boys who think they're girls take the places. I don't want to sit in my female-only menopause support group discussing vaginal dryness and anxiety with a male.

Trans people want the right to live their "best lives" without discrimination and harassment and that's fine. But they also want women's rights. And that's not right.

Currently UK law (EA’10) has provision for single sex spaces - and this allows the exclusion of those with a GRC and working towards transition (one of the protected characteristics).

This has not been happening in practice - see prisons, changing rooms, specific jobs, toilets etc…. On both sides of the border. In effect self I.D. is already happening.

By making changes to the GRC in Scotland, it puts the new Scottish GRC at odds with the EA’10 (which is not currently being applied properly anyway). A massive legal problem for the UK as a whole and is a nightmare for any person who doesn’t wish to share intimate spaces with the opposite sex.

I think most of us are very clear on the difference between sex and gender - even if we reject the ideas of gender.

The Scottish government? Not so much. Uses the terms interchangeably.

Well said @CharityShopChic

So detransitioning is now illegal and punishable by imprisonment? Is that what that means?

How do you prove an application is fraudulent when you can't define what "living as a woman" means in the first place?

This.

Rishi Sunak recently talked about amending the Equality Act to make it clear that sex for the purposes of the act means your actual biological sex, not your "legal sex".

But unless and until that happens, the Haldane ruling effectively means that anyone with a GRC is treated as being the opposite sex for all purposes. This is despite the fact that the Equality Act expressly permits the provision of single sex spaces and services which can exclude even people with a GRC in exceptional circumstances, which means it acknowledges that someone who has changed their "legal sex" has not changed their actual sex. The whole thing is a dog's breakfast.

And the Scottish reforms will enable someone to change their "legal sex" based on nothing more than signing a piece of paper. No hormones, no surgery, not even a diagnosis of gender dysphoria required. Anyone can change their "legal sex" for any reason they like, even if the only reason they want to do it is so that they can access spaces for members of the opposite sex.

It's also worth noting that the legal ability for organisations to provide single sex spaces and services in limited circumstances does not translate to that being an obligation. This means that at the moment this ability is largely theoretical. It is perfectly legal for a rape crisis organisation to exclude transgender males who believe they identify as women from women's rape support groups, for example. But in practice, they're not doing that, they're being "inclusive". So female rape survivors who need exclusively female support because they are traumatised by male people cannot in practice access the support they need.

When the Equality Act was passed, making sex a protected characteristic and gender reassignment a separate protected characteristic, it was clearly not deemed necessary to clarify that sex means biological sex, because nobody really believed that legal sex was anything other than a polite fiction afforded to people suffering from really severe dysphoria. Now that perception has shifted, and in particular following the Haldane ruling, it does need clarifying. Unless and until that happens, the protected characteristic of sex is now effectively meaningless because anyone - in Scotland at least - can become the opposite sex just by signing this magical piece of paper.

It's not enough for trans people to have their own protections. Trans activists want women NOT to have any rights or protections which conflict with what they want.

That's what the SNP have done to Scotland. Any fool with a yellow rosette on was voted in. Consequently we have a parliament full of the most craven, weak, mindless yes men and women. Apart from one or two notable exceptions.

Scottish politicians used to be intelligent, articulate, full of integrity, something to be proud of. No more.

Well, quite.

I am utterly utterly depressed about this. So disappointed. And I have nothing to add, as my thoughts have already been articulated several times on this thread.

Whether or not you have a daughter doesn't stop you caring about young people in general.
I am also concerned about young people in general.
Under this new proposal( and it isn't law yet- still has to be ratified by Westminster and given Royal Assent).
The proposal will allow 16 year olds to change gender, without counselling, without having to see a GP. Sixteen is a roller coaster for many young people. As they mature, find their own identity, perhaps start sexual relationships, they can act impulsively.
One a 16 year old changes gender identity, and all the legal documents changed, it will stay that way for life.
Thet could be convicted of an offence if they change their minds and change back again.
So that gender is stuck with them for life.

I am against self ID for many reasons- but this aspect is horrifying.

@CharityShopChic Totally agree with you